Seeking MF 180 knowledge

[racered57]

Looked at a 1967 180 with perkins 4 cyl diesel. Has multi power. Did not test it for function.
Tractor starts and moves ,brakes work, lift works ,power steering works. Been parked a few years.
Problem, there is a loud knock/ whacking noise in the hydraulic pump housing behind the clutch. The noise speeds up with engine rpm, and I estimate the knock is 1/4 engine speed. The noise is not affected by clutch engage or disengage, PTO engage or neutral, steering input or 3 point lift action. I did not hear the noise when cranking the engine.
The owner said he was told it likely was a loose or dropped roll pin for the hydra pump. There are other issues for sure, seized water pump, oil level way high but not milky, bad tires.
The price is low but not scrap price.
I am most concerned about the noise.
I expect a split is needed to get to the noise, but do I dare spend the money and effort to then find the tractor is scrap?
Hope this is a noise that someone has experience with, and it is worth fixing.
Thank you for any advice,Paul

 

[Bob N.Y.]

Does the noise go away if you lower the 3 point hitch slightly? If yes, The 3 ph is in constant pumping mode and putting a strain on the system.

 

[racered57]

(quoted from post at 12:51:30 02/06/23) Does the noise go away if you lower the 3 point hitch slightly? If yes, The 3 ph is in constant pumping mode and putting a strain on the system.

The noise does not change with 3ph raised or lowered. The lift arms were a bit jerky as they raised.
I tried to affect the noise but it remained constant, with engine rpm, only at 1/4 of engine rpm.
I have perused the online service manual choices but have not convinced myself to purchase one yet, I don't own the tractor.
I would like to see an exploded view of the hydraulic pump and drive assembly.

 

[Dieseltech]

Does it have the two stage dry clutch for PTO? Or the fully independent HYDRAULIC applied PTO clutch? If independent the PTO/hydraulic pump runs constantly, and if the
trouble is the trans front INPUT PTO DRIVE gears have damage that MAY be the noise. The two stage clutch models, that drive stops with the pedal fully depressed IF clutch
is working right. Years ago I had a 165 model with the same noise, and one of the PTO front drive gears had a tooth off, making the noise on that one.

 

[racered57]

(quoted from post at 16:07:14 02/06/23) Does it have the two stage dry clutch for PTO? Or the fully independent HYDRAULIC applied PTO clutch? If independent the PTO/hydraulic pump runs constantly, and if the
trouble is the trans front INPUT PTO DRIVE gears have damage that MAY be the noise. The two stage clutch models, that drive stops with the pedal fully depressed IF clutch
is working right. Years ago I had a 165 model with the same noise, and one of the PTO front drive gears had a tooth off, making the noise on that one.

Thank you sir,
The PTO may be hydraulic, the lever to engage PTO is on the left side of the seat at seat level and moves a small lever at the upper most area of the housing under the seat.
The drive gears for the pump could be the noise, it did occur to me at the time the noise could be a missing tooth on a gear.
The frequency of the noise compared to engine rpm, would indicate a large gear missing a tooth driven by a smaller gear, turning at engine speed.

 

[Dieseltech]

If the PTO lever only has OFF/ON positions you have the fully independent hydraulic PTO clutch. The two stage PTO system has three lever positions, OFF/GROUND/ENGINE PTO
choices. The 165 I had years ago the lower front driven PTO gear in the trans front had a tooth off, making the noise. I suspect a sudden shock load broke the tooth. A
double split for trans case removal is needed to replace that gear IF that is what's wrong.

 

[MikeinKy]

I had one with the exact same symptoms. It was the front bottom gear in the transmission. It had two teeth missing. Before the split, I would have bet it was in the hydraulics. I was wrong

 

[racered57]

(quoted from post at 22:06:32 02/06/23) I had one with the exact same symptoms. It was the front bottom gear in the transmission. It had two teeth missing. Before the split, I would have bet it was in the hydraulics. I was wrong

When the engine was running I held the clutch down and put the tractor in gear,the noise continued. I believe that the input shaft, main shaft,and counter shaft of the trans would not be turning while the tractor was not moving. I suspect there is a shaft that is turning the hydraulic pump separate from the transmission input, and the noise is related to it. I do not have a parts diagram to see what is inside,so today I will search for a parts diagram.
Thank you all for responding with your help. Paul

 

[Dieseltech]

The IPTO equipped tractors have the front PTO input splines in the clutch pressure plate so it never stops at the flywheel like the dual two stage clutch models do.

 

[racered57]

(quoted from post at 11:25:40 02/07/23) The IPTO equipped tractors have the front PTO input splines in the clutch pressure plate so it never stops at the flywheel like the dual two stage clutch models do.

This makes sense,and looking at the parts schematic there is a 53 tooth gear that looks like may be the input drive for the independent PTO, the parts diagrams are a bit complicated.
A split will tell the rest of the story.
Thank you again for the reply.

 

[racered57]

(quoted from post at 11:47:52 02/07/23)

(quoted from post at 11:25:40 02/07/23) The IPTO equipped tractors have the front PTO input splines in the clutch pressure plate so it never stops at the flywheel like the dual two stage clutch models do.

This makes sense,and looking at the parts schematic there is a 53 tooth gear that looks like may be the input drive for the independent PTO, the parts diagrams are a bit complicated.
A split will tell the rest of the story.
Thank you again for the reply.

After studying the parts breakdown for the independent PTO pump I see gears that reduce input rpm for the PTO pump. I am confidant this is the source of the noise. New gears are available.
Thank you all for your input.