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littleguy-HT

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Now I will have to wait for spring to put her back to work.

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Looks Good!! Nice job <E>:wink:</E> I don't believe I would have done anything different. Now you Know what condition your engine is in keep up on the Maint. your be good for yrs. by the way When I rebuild a motor I always change the oil about 1/4 of the Hrs. of a regular Serv. or change. Say in about 20-25 That will give all the Bearings.Metal,Dirt gasket material etc. enough time to get filtered out. Which will dirty-up the filter. I see the Fram on there which makes for a cheap piece of mind for a couple of Bucks.
 
I hook the finishing mower up behind her today for about an hour and a half to seat the rings in. Everything was looking good. <E>:D</E>
 
The FM is my favorite <E>:D</E> Being In Ga. it's funny I was just looking at the Front field today. Won't be long before it's time to get it out and do the Maint on it. Sharpen the blades hit the Grease zerks, and check the belt. Thats about it. I bought this one off CL. after I bought the Tractor. It's cuts great and by far the nicest BA. trouble free mower I've ever Owned. <E>:D</E>

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congrats on your rebuild. hope everything goes well for you... When I do a rebuild on something, my saying is she's either gonna go or blow. Hopefully not the last one. Enjoy your tractor. <E>:D</E>
 
Hey Carey, I have two landprides finishing mowers. A 4ft. and a 5ft. The 5ft. I have had for 15 yrs. now. It still has the original bearing in all three blade spindles, close to 2200hrs on them. I grease it about every 2 times I mow, which is about 5 acres each time.
 
Never Heard anything bad about Landpride.Thats alot of Hrs. way more than I've put on my Woods/Frontier. Thats a point I try to make Esp. with my Son about taking care of your equipment. Car,Atv etc. Take the time and do the Maint. And it will be there for you just about everytime you need or want to use it. The 5' should work great with the freshendup 2000. Keep up with your Maint. on it. Oil changes,Filters and Hit your Grease Zerks and your be good for another 30+ Yrs. <E>:wink:</E>
 
Macon is my 2nd. favorite city next to Athens. I use to make a Monthly Run to the Post Office in old town Macon. Your not far then from Griffin Ga.. Steve at Spalding good Guy to deal with. He's made it well worth the drive to S.Atl. for me a couple of times. <E>:wink:</E>
 
<QUOTE author="littleguy"><s>
</s>Well I have about 20 hrs. on it and I think it's losing compression again. Do you think the rings did not seat?<e>
Click to expand...
/e></QUOTE>

Not if you originally had adequate compression. They would not un-seat. Why do you think you are losing compression?
 
I first noticed it would turn over and over more before cranking. This morning it wouldn't crank untill I used starting fluid. Also lack of power, and crank case blow comming out of the tube that goes down the side of the engine.
 
Most of been on another one of your posts. Didn't you replace the Pistons,Rings.and Cylinders? if so I would tend to think it would of lasted longer than that? If it lost Comp.Already something was missed or wasn't right. <E>:?</E>
 
I even put in new sleeves, however I did not hone the sleeves. They allready had hash marks so I didn't rehone them. I built an adaptor to check the compression before, I will see if I can find it and check again. Maybe the valves need readjusting. I'll check that also. When I got it running I mowed for several hours before it stopped smoking so at that point I considered the rings to be seated.
 
That is a bummer. Sounds like something went wrong. Won't hurt to check the valves but sure sounds like ring/piston blowby.
 
I was just thinking little guy and went and checked the New Cyl. Sleeves and there's 3 different Sleeves 2tr20,2tr20A and a 2tr2oAx. No Spec's. listed but I hope you used the Correct one and what the difference is? And What really has me Curious is my 2000 eng. is a 2tr20A-A and can't find out anything what the -A stands for. Never seen one with it and I've been looking and asking for 4.5 yrs. and still can't find out what means. Now I'm begining to wounder if the -A is in the bore of the Cylinder etc. <E>:?</E> Anyone??? This has Stumped everyone even Fredricks. The dealer I bought it from is UTDA/fredricks supplied also and Doesn't now why or were it came from. Somethings Up or different without a doubt. Cleaned it up and got a good pic. of it. May not have anything to do with the Eng. No doubt it's there always been curious esp. when ordering parts and just hate to find out the hard way. <E>:wink:</E>

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I also have the 2TR20A-A. The block casing # is 2TR20A-814019 and is located right beside the sticker. I found my compression tester adaptor and will check it later today.
 
I don't know just what the 265 and 290 indicate but do know the ym276 service manual states there can be 3 different block bore sizes for liners. The cylinder block will be stamped with an A,B, or C. Liners likewise with A being the larger and C the smaller. This would not have any effect of liner bore, only block bore. Don't think any of this has anything to do with your problem but just wondering if your 265 and 290 might be an indicator or block bore size. Neither of those numbers in mm indicate anything close to bore size.
 
Man I was going to say yes until I seen the pic. Those are pretty Deep Hach marks eyen after the wear of seating. IMO. Someting stinks. Mic. the piston Cylinders.and go from there. We can Blah Blah all day lets see if we can't all the Facts first. Funny also little guy were you get that 2000 would you mind enlightening me <E>:D</E>
 
If a valve is held open by the Cam It's usally going to Have "No" not "Low" Comp. Also 2 Set wrong and 1 right after it's been running Double ??

Gray that was a good guess 25 miles from were I bought this one <E>:wink:</E>
 
Well I checked the valves and they are OK. I pulled the injectors back out and squirted some oil down on top of the cylinders and rechecked the compression. Both cylinders then went up to about 350. My gauge stops at 300psi. I still wonder what happened or why it happened after new sleeves and rings.
 
You would think I 'd know how many Cyl. a 2000 has <E>:oops:</E> Was in a hurry and it's hard for me to type and stay on Task sometimes. I was thinking Valves I believe. <E>:roll:</E> Now you know why a SS. Judge just disabled me. Finally and after he mandated all the Med. records. We was able to determan WT? Happend. I always thought it was a Stroke but it was worse. I had a Aneurysm plus all the head and neck injury's. 5wks. ICU UGH!!! I guess I need to edit that one. Thanks for telling me.
 
I’m estimating.The numbers only go to 300psi. The dial on the gauge went approximately the same distance past the 300 mark as the 250 mark is in front of the 300 mark. The oil I squirted in the cylinder raised the compression leaving me to believe the rings have failed again. I just don’t know why.
 
Well I’ve got the pistons out and it seems as though my YM2000 is a product of a vet-nam rebuild. After downloading the yanmar spec’s catalog the 2000’s have a 90mm and 88mm bore.

EP-4763 Piston w/ pin &amp; clips 240, 2000 RED, 2210 Repl. 124763-22090 (90mm)
EP-4750 Piston w/ pin &amp; clips 1900, 2000 Green Repl. 124750-22090 (88mm)

I have mic’ed the pistons and they are only 82mm. There’s the problem and the reason it loss compression so fast. The new sleeves seem to measure at 90mm. I will have to order new pistons and rings on Monday.

Here some examples of the 82mm pistons:

EP-9369 Piston w/ pin &amp; clips 2001, 2010, 2020 Repl. 129369-22090 (82mm)
(Old # 129351-22090)

EP-9156 Piston w/ pin &amp; clips F20, FX20 (82mm) Repl. 129156-22090
RS-351 Ring set – STD Repl. 729151-2250
 
Something seems amiss there. I have a hard time believing a 82mm piston would even run in a 90mm sleeve. That's more than a 1/4" difference. At what points did you measure the pistons? At any rate, you need to check your clearances as you assemble.
 
Thanks for being that to light. Well I wasn’t reading my dial right. The piston measures 3.523 x 25.4 = 89.48. The sleeve measures 3.54 x 25.4 = 89.91. So the sleeves and pistons seem to be right which is a 90mm bore.

I still don’t know why it loss compression. The cylinders are all shiny; three is no hash marks in them at all. Like I posted early is I did not re-hone the cylinders because they had some good hash marks already in them. When I pushed the piston out there wasn’t any drag. With gas engines you are supposed to have .004 of end rings gap per cylinder bore. I took the oil ring off the piston and put it down in the cylinder, it only had 20 hrs. since the rebuild, and the gap is .045.
 
So, you are saying you have .045" and 1/4" end gap on rew rings and sleeves with only 20 hours use?
 
Winston, no I did not check the end ring gap when I built the engine.

Norm, Yes those are the measurement on the rings with only 20 hrs. of use. The rings are thin and wore out, why I don’t know. When I pushed the pistons out the was no resistance.
 
Never heard of rings wearing that fast. I see on the parts list 3 different sets of rings for the 2000. Are you confident you had the correct rings to start with?
 
Yep, I'm guessing you installed the wrong rings for whatever reason. Always, always, always check all clearances on assembly, and make sure all oil passages are clear and correctly oriented, (remember that broken crankshaft). I would just order new rings, and a service manual. You can't "trust to luck" in engine rebuilding.
 
I received my new rings from Hoye today and I needed to do a little checking. I took the top new ring and put it down in the sleeve, which are new with only 20 hrs since rebuild, and there is a .025 end ring gap. I slid it down about an inch with the piston, no old rings on it, to square it up with the cylinder. I also took the 2nd ring and did the same thing. Still about .025 gap. When I hone the cylinders to put the hash marks, this will add to the diameter of the cylinder which will increase the cylinder bore a small amount. The salesman at Hoye, Matt, said the end ring gap for my YM 2000 is supposed to be between .011-.019., which will put the end ring gap on my tractor out of tolerance. Could this be a product of aftermarket parts? Could be this reason I loss compression after only 20hrs. of use? Is there some .010 rings over ring made for this tractor? If there are some .010 over rings that would put me back in tolerance on the end ring gap.
 
I doubt there are oversized rings for sleeved engines. I suspect the problem lies either in ordering the correct parts for the correct engine or an oiling problem. Are your sleeves showing any wear? This is beginning to resemble a train wreck, considering the broken crankshaft for unknown reasons.
 
The sleeves in my YM 2000 measure 5.354" = 90.27mm. This is the tractor I'm working on now.

The crankshaft was out of my other tractor, YM 1500. I had the crankshaft turned .030 for that rebuild and the crankshaft broke after about 50hrs. The replacement crank I put back in it is only turned .010.
 
There are three different engine #'s, 2TR20, 2TR20-A, and 2TR20A-X. All I know is the red tractor has a 90mm bore and the green has a 88mm bore. What is the size of the third?
 
I don't have the specs for a 90mm sleeve but if it is truly suppose to be 90mm then your rings should have less than .019" end gap. If 90mm is correct spec then either you are getting a bad micrometer reading or the rings are not to specs.
 
I went back to double check my measurements. I took my telescoping gauge and inserted it down about an inch into the sleeve (both sleeves) and they measure 3.548 -3.552 which equates to 90.12 mm and 90.22 respectively. This tells me the sleeves are O.K. I took the new top ring and placed in each sleeve down about an inch also. I made sure the rings were perpendicular to the cylinder by using the piston to slowly push the ring down. Each end ring gap measure .023 and .025.

Now back to your question Winston, are the rings made by an aftermarket manufacture and are out of spec’s.? I know Hoye is just a distributor of these parts but can someone at Hoye take a new sleeve and a set of new rings off the shelf to check also. Can someone from the distributor tell me to go ahead and install the rings and guarantee that the product is of good standing quality and that I should not have any problems with the rings being .003 to .004 out of spec’s? After this research it makes me wonder if that was the problem before and the reason that my tractor loss compression after only 20hrs.
 
Are you working from a service manual? I don't have one anymore after a puppy found it, but found this from an older post of mine on another forum:
"My I&amp;T service manual says the wear limit on the YM240 sleeves is 90.20mm (3.5512 inches), with new being 90.000-90.035mm (3.5433-3.5447 inches). The wear limit for clearance on the piston skirt to the liner is 0.3mm (0.0118 inches). Ring gaps are desired 0.3-0.5mm (0.0031-0.0045 inches) and the wear limit is 1.5mm (0.0591 inches)."

You have posted quite different measurements for what the sleeve inside diameter is: 90.27mm, 89.91mm, 90.12mm, 90.22mm. I understand the last two are from different cylinders, but (and please don't take this in the wrong way) it seems like you're having trouble getting consistent measurements with your micrometer. Most of your measurements are within specification, but notice how much difference you have in consistency: the difference between the two smallest measurements is beyond the wear limit from the tightest new sleeve. This means it is difficult to know what one is actually measuring and working with. There is just too much variation in the dimensions.

Note, also, that the conversion for ring gap is incorrect to inches. The SI unit specification is original, and the conversion should be 0.01181-0.01969 inches. My point is that even the service manuals have errors, so making mistakes happens. The probability, in my book, is that there is more likely to be a measurement error than out of specification parts; not that the latter doesn't happen.

When I used to build engines, rings came a little oversized, and it was necessary to file down the tips of the rings to achieve the proper end gap. I don't know if these rings come that way or not; this is different than being out of spec, of course, and would actually help your problem. I'm inclined to suspect your sleeves are worn beyond the limit; the trouble is they are new! The picture you showed almost looks as if the cross hatching is ground into the liners, not lightly honed. Are you sure someone else didn't try to help by honing the sleeves? That could have worn the rings overly fast, and would account for the out of dimension parts. Try pulling the oil filter and checking for metallic pieces. You'll also want to look at the bearings. If that much material was lost off the walls and rings in such a short amount of time, it may have gone through them.

I really, really doubt someone is going to take financial responsibility for putting parts that are known to be out of specification into an engine and promise you won't have any problems. That just doesn't seem reasonable at all.

Keep after it, you'll get it functional again. It's just a matter of running down the root trouble. Good luck!
 
Thanks for your thoughts.

That is a long post and I have read it several times going over the measurements you have posted. I have checked my sleeves again and if the wear limit on the sleeves is 90.20mm then yes my sleeves are beyond that at 90.06mm. Why after only 20 hrs. I don’t know. I put a piston in the sleeve upside down and down in it about halfway and can barely get a .011 feeler gauge to go between the piston skirt and the cylinder wall. According to your post, that is at the max point on limit. You said end ring gap is desired at .3-.5mm which is actually .011-.019 (I believe) with wear limit at 1.5mm which is .059. If that’s the case, then my end ring gap in .025 (.6mm) which should be within limit.

I have bought .10 over rings and filed them down when building gas engine in order for the end ring gap to be within spec’s., so I understand you on that. The cross hatchings were already in the sleeves when I took them out of the box so I did not re-hone them. The oil did have a light silver look down in the bottom of the oil pan. Do new sleeve come with cross hatchings in them or was I sent some that had been returned and resold? I’m not accusing anybody of any wrong doing I’m simple trying to figure out what happened. I don’t want to build this engine again just to have it wear out so quickly. This is getting expensive.
 
Are you oiling the cylinders before testing for ring fit? It probably makes a difference. You really need to get and follow the OEM factory Yanmar service manual for your tractor, YM240.
 
Obviously I cannot and do not speak for Hoye, but I don't see any way you could have gotten used sleeves. Installing, running, and removing them leaves marks. There would be no reason to have the sleeves put into something else, run, removed, then rezoned and sold as new.

I'm confused about your statement that the sleeves are out of specification at 90.06mm. Is that a new measurement? That dimension isn't outside normal wear limits, though it is clearly less than called for as new. If that dimension is correct and you have the rings for a 90mm sleeve, your end gap would have to be under the wear limit, as it is.

I guess I would start farther back, and start checking for a straight crankshaft and connecting rods. Maybe a kink somewhere is causing the sleeves to wear out of round. This could account for the disparate measurements.
 
By no way am I accusing Hoye of any wrong doing by selling use parts for new ones. I have had nothing but good customer service them. Thank you.

Now you are saying that if my sleeves are 90.06mm they are within spec’s. I have brand new rings and have an end ring gap of .025 but according to your service manual the desired gap in .3 – .5 mm (.011 - .019) but the wear limit is 1.5mm (.059). Also the piston skirt to liner distance is .011, which is maxed out, but within limit. If that is the case then everything is within spec’s.
 
Going through your old posts I see that your engine is a 2TR20A-A, I'm pretty sure that means you should be ordering ALL parts for a 2TR20A-X engine. Is that what you are doing? I still highly recommend that OEM service manual, and disregard all metric measurements using only the decimal, (.XXX) posted, if they look reasonable. Sometimes there were conversion mistakes even in the Factory manuals. A successful engine rebuild cannot be done haphazardly as you are doing.
 
I have never heard that I am supposed to be ordering parts for a 2TR20A-X. When asked what engine I have I tell them 2TR20A-A. I can only assume the parts guy at Hoye, Matt, knows which parts I need.
 
What's the difference between the 2TR20A, 2TR20A-A and the 2TR20A-X? I know there is a 90mm bore(red) and a 88mm bore (green).
 
<QUOTE author="littleguy"><s>
</s>What's the difference between the 2TR20A, 2TR20A-A and the 2TR20A-X? I know there is a 90mm bore(red) and a 88mm bore (green).<e>
Click to expand...
/e></QUOTE>

You should ask Hoye, but normally X means any #, A-Z. If mine, I would get the biggest rings available and file to fit. You need to be conversing live with Aaron or Matt about your parts, instead of on this forum.
 
<QUOTE author="littleguy"><s>
</s>No I didn't oil the cylinders before testing the ring fit. How would that make a difference?<e>
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/e></QUOTE>

Several of my engine rebuild manuals say to oil the cylinder before testing ring end gap. I imagine a coating of oil could easily account for .010" of ring end gap on a 3.5" piston.
 
Well I thought about it, the sleeves were in spec’s and I have brand new rings from Hoye so I put the engine back together and have it running. We’ll see how long it last this time. Thanks to everybody for their opinion and advice.
 
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