Sleeve Question

[JohnP]

OK. I have done some searching on here and just haven't found exactly the answer to my question. So here goes.

I was bushhogging with my 39 9N the other day and I heard a noise and poof, blue smoke from muffler and oil fill.

I hoped blown head gasket but after pulling head was disappointed. Number 2 cylinder had metal fragments laying on top of piston and the gap from the piston to the cyl wall was significant. In significant I mean like an eighth of an inch. It just seemed number two had this problem this bad. Looking more I noticed the sleeve was very much thinner and had even chipped at the top where it is even with the block.

So, I see I need to replace sleeves. Problem is two fold for me. One, I do not know which sleeves I have since these seem to be so worn I can't tell what thickness they should be. Two, in the rebuild kits I see the standard .090 and .040. and I keep hearing about the lip or flange. My sleeves do not have a lip it appears. They are just flush with the block. What gives? Any ideas?

BTW, I cannot make out the serial number on the block to be sure the engine is a 39. I have ID'd it by console, and other misc tell tell signs like no safty start switch and such.

Thanks all.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 12:23:37 09/02/09)

So, I see I need to replace sleeves. Problem is two fold for me. One, I do not know which sleeves I have since these seem to be so worn I can't tell what thickness they should be. Two, in the rebuild kits I see the standard .090 and .040. and I keep hearing about the lip or flange. My sleeves do not have a lip it appears. They are just flush with the block. What gives? Any ideas?

BTW, I cannot make out the serial number on the block to be sure the engine is a 39. I have ID'd it by console, and other misc tell tell signs like no safty start switch and such.

Thanks all.

Sounds like you have dropped a sleeve. Even if it is in fact a '39 that's far from definitive - many tractors originally equipped with .040 sleeves have been retrofitted with .090 sleeves. The easest way to ascertain what you have is to measure the bare bore in the block (not the ID of the sleeve). Since #2 is now missing a sleeve that should be an easy task. The bore for .040 sleeves is 3.2675", and for .090 sleeves it is 3.3675". The difference is 1/10 of an inch and absent a caliper or similar instrument can be measured with a conventional steel rule accurately enough to differentiate the two.

As a point of reference the .040 sleeves are roughly the thickness of a tin can - the .090 sleeves are more than twice that and very substantial in comparison.

TOH

 

[Dell (WA)]

John........you ask........"I keep hearing about the lip or flange. My sleeves do not have a lip it appears. They are just flush with the block"......yep, the lip is set down INTO the block and must be FLUSH with the top of the block.

I've never heard of dropping the thicker 0.090 castiron sleeve, but have several times heard of dropping the thinner 0.040 sheetmetal sleeve.

Sounds like engine overhaul time; BORE the block out for the BETTER castiron sleeves and 3-ring pistons. New crankshaft bearings will be determined AFTER you remove the crankshaft. O/H kits $500 (cheap) Rebuilt engine $1500 and $500 installation at professional tractor rebuilders. Them engines were designed for rebuilding by horse farmers, you can operate a computer.

You comment......"BTW, I cannot make out the serial number on the block to be sure the engine is a 39. I have ID'd it by console, and other misc tell tell signs like no safty start switch and such".......other than for "braggin' rights" the ONLY thing you need to know is whether it is the 4-nipple frontmount or the 5-nipple sidemount and tractor wize whether it is 3-speed 9N/2N tranny or 4-speed 8N tranny. The hydraulic pump is spec'd to the tranny. .......Dell, sorry about yer bad luck

 

[NOXJohn]

If you plan on rebuilding the engine don't order anything until you strip it down and take it to a machine shop. The machinist can tell you what sleeves you will need. Also you need him to look at the crank to see if it needs to be turned and if so how much on rods and mains so you know what size bearing inserts to order. Also look at oil pump and make sure you order the correct size gears. Have him check the pistons to see if they can be reused (most likely not). Check the valves and lifters to see if they need to be replaced or if they can be just ground. After that you can look at the various rebuild kits and decide what to buy. Might as well have him check the head to insure it is not warped or cracked. Also magnaflux the block for cracks. You don't want to go through all the expense and work of a rebuild only to find a fatal flaw in the engine.

 

[JohnP]

I am almost certain these are the steel .040's. How can you "drop" one if they are flanged at the top? The repair manual leads me to believe they do not have a flange. Only the .090 cast iron sleeves do. I will know more when I can get them out. It just sure doesn't look like they are flanged to me. I will post a picture if I get time tonight.
Thanks all

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 08:24:47 09/03/09) I am almost certain these are the steel .040's. How can you "drop" one if they are flanged at the top? The repair manual leads me to believe they do not have a flange. Only the .090 cast iron sleeves do. I will know more when I can get them out. It just sure doesn't look like they are flanged to me. I will post a picture if I get time tonight.
Thanks all

The original .040 sleeves in my 1940 (41??) 9N had a very small flare at the top and the bore in the block had a matching fillet on the top edge. The flare is subjected to direct combustion heat, carbons up, erodes, and breaks off quite easily. The replacement .090 sleeves I installed had a square shouldered step rather than the flare which is considerably more substantial.

Here's a picture of an original .040 120 CID sleeve alongside a 134 CID sleeve which is very similar to the .090 sleeves used in the N's. You can see that the flare on the old .040 sleeve is burned through in spots.

TOH

 

[JohnP]

Great. Thanks for that photo. It appears I probably did drop a sleeve since the thickness of my sleeves (That aren't broken) look about the same as that one on the left in the pic. I just assumed that was the sleeve thickness. It makes sense now. Thanks a ton.