buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Needs a floating neutral bar . Could need a ground rod at the sun panel too .
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
Here you must add a separate grounding bar on a sub panel and Not use the bonding screw.
Stephen Newell
Well-known Member
Yes, add a ground bar. The sub-panel should also have it's own ground rod in the ground.
Hi again lenray, congrats on your new panel. You have asked several good electrical questions lately and received a ton of lay as well as professional responses as all the fine gents here are willing to help, good for them, thanks to YT Mag !!!!
Do I have to add my own grounding bar??
SHORT ANSWER yes you need a grounding buss/bar (isolated from Neutral) of some sort in the panel where all the Bare/Green Equipment GroundiNG Conductors attach along with the panels case/frame...
LONG ANSWERS AND EXPLANATIONS:
You ask:
1) Have read where the neutral and grounds have to be separated in a sub panel
Thats CORRECT and in accordance with the NEC. Do NOT take my word alone for it
consult the NEC
The Neutrals all attach to the Neutral Buss NOTE HOWEVER it must be electrically
insulated and isolated from the Ground Buss and the panels case/frame !!!!!!!!
2) and that bonding screw must not be installed.
In a SUB PANEL DO NOTTTTTTTTTTTT AGAIN BOND NEUTRAL TO GROUND. There is
to be only one NG Bond (typically at the Main Panel). Again the Neutral Buss
must be insulated and isolated from the Ground Buss and case/frame !!!!!!!!!!!!
3) Do I have to add my own grounding bar??
A Ground Buss/Bar of some sort is necessary (yes, can add your own) if none
already exists and the panels case/frame,,,,,,PLUS all the Bare/Green Equipment
GroundING Conductors attach to it
NOTE: If this is 120/240 Volt Single Phase Three Wire Service you would need to run FOUR wires. Two Hots L1 & L2, Neutral, Ground....and a buildings electrical service requires proper grounding..
If I missed anything hopefully the other fine gents can add to OR CORRECT ME IF I MADE A MISTAKE... You may get several responses (wait n see) but I think/hope this answers your questions. If you have more feel free to post back. Where fire and life safety are at risk consider consulting the NEC as well as any applicable local regulations and professional electricians and electrical engineers.
See if others agree ???
John T
Do I have to add my own grounding bar??
SHORT ANSWER yes you need a grounding buss/bar (isolated from Neutral) of some sort in the panel where all the Bare/Green Equipment GroundiNG Conductors attach along with the panels case/frame...
LONG ANSWERS AND EXPLANATIONS:
You ask:
1) Have read where the neutral and grounds have to be separated in a sub panel
Thats CORRECT and in accordance with the NEC. Do NOT take my word alone for it
consult the NEC
The Neutrals all attach to the Neutral Buss NOTE HOWEVER it must be electrically
insulated and isolated from the Ground Buss and the panels case/frame !!!!!!!!
2) and that bonding screw must not be installed.
In a SUB PANEL DO NOTTTTTTTTTTTT AGAIN BOND NEUTRAL TO GROUND. There is
to be only one NG Bond (typically at the Main Panel). Again the Neutral Buss
must be insulated and isolated from the Ground Buss and case/frame !!!!!!!!!!!!
3) Do I have to add my own grounding bar??
A Ground Buss/Bar of some sort is necessary (yes, can add your own) if none
already exists and the panels case/frame,,,,,,PLUS all the Bare/Green Equipment
GroundING Conductors attach to it
NOTE: If this is 120/240 Volt Single Phase Three Wire Service you would need to run FOUR wires. Two Hots L1 & L2, Neutral, Ground....and a buildings electrical service requires proper grounding..
If I missed anything hopefully the other fine gents can add to OR CORRECT ME IF I MADE A MISTAKE... You may get several responses (wait n see) but I think/hope this answers your questions. If you have more feel free to post back. Where fire and life safety are at risk consider consulting the NEC as well as any applicable local regulations and professional electricians and electrical engineers.
See if others agree ???
John T
PS lenray said SUB PANEL, I take him at his word so my answer above concerns a SUB PANEL. If it were a TYPICAL Main Panel there would be a Neutral Ground Bond along with other differences. A Main Panel may have two different Ground and Neutral Busses WHICH ARE TIED TOGETHER or some have ONLY ONE COMMON NEUTRAL/GROUND BUSS where BOTH Neutrals and Grounds attach. Attachment to a Grounding Electrode is also required.
John T
John T
I hate to disagree with experts but, I believe a sub-panel should be feed with a four-wire system. Two hots, one neutral and an equipment ground. In the sub-panel the neutral and ground are isolated from each other. The neutral is not bonded to the panel. A ground rod at the panel is not required or recommended.
DoubleO7
Well-known Member
- Location
- Crystal River, FL
Look on the paper label inside the panel door.
The part number for the add-in kit you need is probably listed there.
Good Morning Sir, regarding your post here are my comments:
1) I believe a sub-panel should be feed with a four-wire system. Two hots, one neutral and an equipment ground. In the sub-panel the neutral and ground are isolated from each other. The neutral is not bonded to the panel.
WE AGREE !!!!!!!!!!! Thats the same as I posted for a SUB PANEL (if its a 120/240 Volt Single Phase Service) and that's what the NEC says also CONGRATULATIONS to both of us !!!!!!!!!!
2) A ground rod at the panel is not required or recommended..
I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE When I last practiced (may have since changed so no warranty) every buildings electrical service required a Grounding Electrode in the jurisdictions where I practiced in accordance with the NEC AT THAT TIME and such was our and inspector approved practice.. MAYBE DIFFERENT NOW OR IN DIFFERENT JURISDICTIONS that was ONLY when and where I last practiced
One would have to check with the CURRENT NEC (if adopted?) and any applicable authority for an answer.. My NEC is soooooooo outdated grrrrrrrr
Best wishes nice sparky chatting with you
John T Long retired Power Distribution Design Engineer and codes may have changed since I last practiced concerning requirements that a buildings electrical service be attached to a Grounding Electrode ?????? Have to ask the NEC dont take my word for it lol
1) I believe a sub-panel should be feed with a four-wire system. Two hots, one neutral and an equipment ground. In the sub-panel the neutral and ground are isolated from each other. The neutral is not bonded to the panel.
WE AGREE !!!!!!!!!!! Thats the same as I posted for a SUB PANEL (if its a 120/240 Volt Single Phase Service) and that's what the NEC says also CONGRATULATIONS to both of us !!!!!!!!!!
2) A ground rod at the panel is not required or recommended..
I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE When I last practiced (may have since changed so no warranty) every buildings electrical service required a Grounding Electrode in the jurisdictions where I practiced in accordance with the NEC AT THAT TIME and such was our and inspector approved practice.. MAYBE DIFFERENT NOW OR IN DIFFERENT JURISDICTIONS that was ONLY when and where I last practiced
One would have to check with the CURRENT NEC (if adopted?) and any applicable authority for an answer.. My NEC is soooooooo outdated grrrrrrrr
Best wishes nice sparky chatting with you
John T Long retired Power Distribution Design Engineer and codes may have changed since I last practiced concerning requirements that a buildings electrical service be attached to a Grounding Electrode ?????? Have to ask the NEC dont take my word for it lol
I am glad we agree on the four-wire system and with the isolation of the ground and neutral at the sub-panel, I am sorry I missed that in your comment. I do believe the current code for residential service recommends only installing ground rods at the main panel. I believe this is recommended to prevent inadvertent current flow on the grounding system. The equipment ground will provide adequate current to the protective device in the main panel in the event the sub-panel enclosure becomes energized to interrupt the current and protect the user. A ground rod alone will not accomplish this function.
Good afternoon Sir, You state: I do believe the current code for residential service recommends only installing ground rods at the main panel
THANKS I will have to check that out..If thats true ?? things may have changed ?? In my day (when and where I practiced) I specified Grounding Electrodes at sub panels BUT NOT NECESSARY IF LOCATED IN THE SAME BUILDING.... I recall other Sub Panel grounding was necessary in remote buildings used to house livestock SO BOSSY DIDNT RECEIVE A SLIGHT SHOCK due to the metal case/frame of a heated waterer which was wired to the Equipment Grounding Conductor THAT WAS AT A HIGHER VOLTAGE POTENTIAL THEN LOCAL MOTHER EARTH caused by inductance and capacitance since the ground was ran in parallel with the hots enroute to the remote sub panel... Installation of a local ground rod there would bring the Equipment Grounding Conductor and case/frame of a waterer BACK TO SAME POTENTIAL AS THE EARTH BOSSY STOOD ON so she didn't get a tingle OUCH lol
I will definitely have to check the latest code, because I used to always use a local Grounding Electrode at sub panels UNLESS in the same building, and FWIW inspectors looked for that...
Any CURRENT PRACTICING PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIANS OR POWER ENGINEERS who are up on the latest code care to comment ???????? Please help us out
Fun sparky chatting with you
John T
THANKS I will have to check that out..If thats true ?? things may have changed ?? In my day (when and where I practiced) I specified Grounding Electrodes at sub panels BUT NOT NECESSARY IF LOCATED IN THE SAME BUILDING.... I recall other Sub Panel grounding was necessary in remote buildings used to house livestock SO BOSSY DIDNT RECEIVE A SLIGHT SHOCK due to the metal case/frame of a heated waterer which was wired to the Equipment Grounding Conductor THAT WAS AT A HIGHER VOLTAGE POTENTIAL THEN LOCAL MOTHER EARTH caused by inductance and capacitance since the ground was ran in parallel with the hots enroute to the remote sub panel... Installation of a local ground rod there would bring the Equipment Grounding Conductor and case/frame of a waterer BACK TO SAME POTENTIAL AS THE EARTH BOSSY STOOD ON so she didn't get a tingle OUCH lol
I will definitely have to check the latest code, because I used to always use a local Grounding Electrode at sub panels UNLESS in the same building, and FWIW inspectors looked for that...
Any CURRENT PRACTICING PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIANS OR POWER ENGINEERS who are up on the latest code care to comment ???????? Please help us out
Fun sparky chatting with you
John T
Are you saying a sub panel must have a grounding rod
YES at least back in MY day in the JURISDICTION/LOCATION where I practiced UNLESS in the same building HOWEVER codes can change for darn sure and different locations can have different rules and they may or may NOT have adopted the NEC
CHECK LOCAL AUTHORITY
John T
YES at least back in MY day in the JURISDICTION/LOCATION where I practiced UNLESS in the same building HOWEVER codes can change for darn sure and different locations can have different rules and they may or may NOT have adopted the NEC
CHECK LOCAL AUTHORITY
John T
Brian G. NY
Well-known Member
Back in '96 I put a 100 Amp sub panel in my barn. I ran 2-0 alum. w/ground. This seemed to work fine and I used it that way for several years.
It wasn't 'til I read posts by John T. and others here that found I needed to separate the ground and neutral in the sub panel to meet the latest code. There were some interesting and detailed posts explaining why back then.
I already had a ground rod and about 40' of old copper lightning rod cable buried at the barn so I left them and ran #4 bare copper (buried) 225 feet back to the main panel. So, I now have lots of grounding.
In my opinion, having a ground at the sub panel as well as running back to the main panel should not cause any problem at all unless, for some reason the line back to the panel was severed.
Am I wrong? Since all the grounds are connected to the same ground bar in the sub panel, it's essentially all one great big ground.
It wasn't 'til I read posts by John T. and others here that found I needed to separate the ground and neutral in the sub panel to meet the latest code. There were some interesting and detailed posts explaining why back then.
I already had a ground rod and about 40' of old copper lightning rod cable buried at the barn so I left them and ran #4 bare copper (buried) 225 feet back to the main panel. So, I now have lots of grounding.
In my opinion, having a ground at the sub panel as well as running back to the main panel should not cause any problem at all unless, for some reason the line back to the panel was severed.
Am I wrong? Since all the grounds are connected to the same ground bar in the sub panel, it's essentially all one great big ground.
SUB PANEL GROUNDING
Found this on the Net and several sources all pretty much SAID THE SAME THING
NOTE that was how it was WHEN and WHERE I last practiced, codes can change and different jurisdictions can have different rules DO AS YOUR LOCAL AUTHORITY (if any such exists) suggests NOT what it was when and where I last practiced
NO WARRANTY check with local authority for requirements in your location.
Yes, a subpanel requires a ground rod if it is located outside of the main building 12. However, if the subpanel is in the same building as the main panel, then it does not require a ground rod 23.
In addition, a subpanel requires a 4-wire feed from the main panel, with two ungrounded conductors, one grounded conductor/neutral, and one equipment grounding conductor (EGC) 14. The neutral and grounding buses in the panel must be isolated 4.
Sub panel grounding refers to the connection of the sub panel's ground wire to the main panel's ground bus or a grounding electrode system12. Sub panels in the same building as the main panel do not need a ground rod, but they need to have separate neutral and ground bars1345. Sub panels in detached buildings need a ground rod and a ground wire back to the main panel15. The sub panel must have four wire feeders, with a dedicated insulated wire for the neutral and a separate wire for the ground235.
The grounding requirements for a subpanel depend on the location of the subpanel and the distance between the subpanel and the main panel. According to Home Improvement Stack Exchange, a subpanel requires a minimum of two ground rods if it is located outside of the main building 1. However, if the subpanel is in the same building as the main panel, then it does not require a ground rod 2.
In addition, a subpanel requires a 4-wire feed from the main panel, with two ungrounded conductors, one grounded conductor/neutral, and one equipment grounding conductor (EGC) 13. The neutral and grounding buses in the panel must be isolated 3.
Fun sparky chatting
John T
Found this on the Net and several sources all pretty much SAID THE SAME THING
NOTE that was how it was WHEN and WHERE I last practiced, codes can change and different jurisdictions can have different rules DO AS YOUR LOCAL AUTHORITY (if any such exists) suggests NOT what it was when and where I last practiced
NO WARRANTY check with local authority for requirements in your location.
Yes, a subpanel requires a ground rod if it is located outside of the main building 12. However, if the subpanel is in the same building as the main panel, then it does not require a ground rod 23.
In addition, a subpanel requires a 4-wire feed from the main panel, with two ungrounded conductors, one grounded conductor/neutral, and one equipment grounding conductor (EGC) 14. The neutral and grounding buses in the panel must be isolated 4.
Sub panel grounding refers to the connection of the sub panel's ground wire to the main panel's ground bus or a grounding electrode system12. Sub panels in the same building as the main panel do not need a ground rod, but they need to have separate neutral and ground bars1345. Sub panels in detached buildings need a ground rod and a ground wire back to the main panel15. The sub panel must have four wire feeders, with a dedicated insulated wire for the neutral and a separate wire for the ground235.
The grounding requirements for a subpanel depend on the location of the subpanel and the distance between the subpanel and the main panel. According to Home Improvement Stack Exchange, a subpanel requires a minimum of two ground rods if it is located outside of the main building 1. However, if the subpanel is in the same building as the main panel, then it does not require a ground rod 2.
In addition, a subpanel requires a 4-wire feed from the main panel, with two ungrounded conductors, one grounded conductor/neutral, and one equipment grounding conductor (EGC) 13. The neutral and grounding buses in the panel must be isolated 3.
Fun sparky chatting
John T
SUB PANEL GROUNDING
Found this on the Net and several sources all pretty much SAID THE SAME THING
NOTE that was how it was WHEN and WHERE I last practiced, codes can change and different jurisdictions can have different rules DO AS YOUR LOCAL AUTHORITY (if any such exists) suggests NOT what it was when and where I last practiced
NO WARRANTY check with local authority for requirements in your location.
Yes, a subpanel requires a ground rod if it is located outside of the main building 12. However, if the subpanel is in the same building as the main panel, then it does not require a ground rod 23.
In addition, a subpanel requires a 4-wire feed from the main panel, with two ungrounded conductors, one grounded conductor/neutral, and one equipment grounding conductor (EGC) 14. The neutral and grounding buses in the panel must be isolated 4.
Sub panel grounding refers to the connection of the sub panel's ground wire to the main panel's ground bus or a grounding electrode system12. Sub panels in the same building as the main panel do not need a ground rod, but they need to have separate neutral and ground bars1345. Sub panels in detached buildings need a ground rod and a ground wire back to the main panel15. The sub panel must have four wire feeders, with a dedicated insulated wire for the neutral and a separate wire for the ground235.
The grounding requirements for a subpanel depend on the location of the subpanel and the distance between the subpanel and the main panel. According to Home Improvement Stack Exchange, a subpanel requires a minimum of two ground rods if it is located outside of the main building 1. However, if the subpanel is in the same building as the main panel, then it does not require a ground rod 2.
In addition, a subpanel requires a 4-wire feed from the main panel, with two ungrounded conductors, one grounded conductor/neutral, and one equipment grounding conductor (EGC) 13. The neutral and grounding buses in the panel must be isolated 3.
Fun sparky chatting
John T
Found this on the Net and several sources all pretty much SAID THE SAME THING
NOTE that was how it was WHEN and WHERE I last practiced, codes can change and different jurisdictions can have different rules DO AS YOUR LOCAL AUTHORITY (if any such exists) suggests NOT what it was when and where I last practiced
NO WARRANTY check with local authority for requirements in your location.
Yes, a subpanel requires a ground rod if it is located outside of the main building 12. However, if the subpanel is in the same building as the main panel, then it does not require a ground rod 23.
In addition, a subpanel requires a 4-wire feed from the main panel, with two ungrounded conductors, one grounded conductor/neutral, and one equipment grounding conductor (EGC) 14. The neutral and grounding buses in the panel must be isolated 4.
Sub panel grounding refers to the connection of the sub panel's ground wire to the main panel's ground bus or a grounding electrode system12. Sub panels in the same building as the main panel do not need a ground rod, but they need to have separate neutral and ground bars1345. Sub panels in detached buildings need a ground rod and a ground wire back to the main panel15. The sub panel must have four wire feeders, with a dedicated insulated wire for the neutral and a separate wire for the ground235.
The grounding requirements for a subpanel depend on the location of the subpanel and the distance between the subpanel and the main panel. According to Home Improvement Stack Exchange, a subpanel requires a minimum of two ground rods if it is located outside of the main building 1. However, if the subpanel is in the same building as the main panel, then it does not require a ground rod 2.
In addition, a subpanel requires a 4-wire feed from the main panel, with two ungrounded conductors, one grounded conductor/neutral, and one equipment grounding conductor (EGC) 13. The neutral and grounding buses in the panel must be isolated 3.
Fun sparky chatting
John T
Heres a PS the same as I posted below FYI. NO WARRANTY its right or wrong
SUB PANEL GROUNDING
Found this on the Net and several sources all pretty much SAID THE SAME THING
NOTE that was how it was WHEN and WHERE I last practiced, codes can change and different jurisdictions can have different rules DO AS YOUR LOCAL AUTHORITY (if any such exists) suggests NOT what it was when and where I last practiced
NO WARRANTY check with local authority for requirements in your location.
Yes, a subpanel requires a ground rod if it is located outside of the main building 12. However, if the subpanel is in the same building as the main panel, then it does not require a ground rod 23.
In addition, a subpanel requires a 4-wire feed from the main panel, with two ungrounded conductors, one grounded conductor/neutral, and one equipment grounding conductor (EGC) 14. The neutral and grounding buses in the panel must be isolated 4.
Sub panel grounding refers to the connection of the sub panel's ground wire to the main panel's ground bus or a grounding electrode system12. Sub panels in the same building as the main panel do not need a ground rod, but they need to have separate neutral and ground bars1345. Sub panels in detached buildings need a ground rod and a ground wire back to the main panel15. The sub panel must have four wire feeders, with a dedicated insulated wire for the neutral and a separate wire for the ground235.
The grounding requirements for a subpanel depend on the location of the subpanel and the distance between the subpanel and the main panel. According to Home Improvement Stack Exchange, a subpanel requires a minimum of two ground rods if it is located outside of the main building 1. However, if the subpanel is in the same building as the main panel, then it does not require a ground rod 2.
In addition, a subpanel requires a 4-wire feed from the main panel, with two ungrounded conductors, one grounded conductor/neutral, and one equipment grounding conductor (EGC) 13. The neutral and grounding buses in the panel must be isolated 3.
Fun sparky chatting
John T
SUB PANEL GROUNDING
Found this on the Net and several sources all pretty much SAID THE SAME THING
NOTE that was how it was WHEN and WHERE I last practiced, codes can change and different jurisdictions can have different rules DO AS YOUR LOCAL AUTHORITY (if any such exists) suggests NOT what it was when and where I last practiced
NO WARRANTY check with local authority for requirements in your location.
Yes, a subpanel requires a ground rod if it is located outside of the main building 12. However, if the subpanel is in the same building as the main panel, then it does not require a ground rod 23.
In addition, a subpanel requires a 4-wire feed from the main panel, with two ungrounded conductors, one grounded conductor/neutral, and one equipment grounding conductor (EGC) 14. The neutral and grounding buses in the panel must be isolated 4.
Sub panel grounding refers to the connection of the sub panel's ground wire to the main panel's ground bus or a grounding electrode system12. Sub panels in the same building as the main panel do not need a ground rod, but they need to have separate neutral and ground bars1345. Sub panels in detached buildings need a ground rod and a ground wire back to the main panel15. The sub panel must have four wire feeders, with a dedicated insulated wire for the neutral and a separate wire for the ground235.
The grounding requirements for a subpanel depend on the location of the subpanel and the distance between the subpanel and the main panel. According to Home Improvement Stack Exchange, a subpanel requires a minimum of two ground rods if it is located outside of the main building 1. However, if the subpanel is in the same building as the main panel, then it does not require a ground rod 2.
In addition, a subpanel requires a 4-wire feed from the main panel, with two ungrounded conductors, one grounded conductor/neutral, and one equipment grounding conductor (EGC) 13. The neutral and grounding buses in the panel must be isolated 3.
Fun sparky chatting
John T
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Same building or a remote building ?
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