Still dealing with Electrical Issues!!!

Okay Guru's!

I completely rewired the entire tractor; even added the switch for some eyeballs and Nada. Its getting plenty of fuel, air...Seems like the only thing Im missing is the spark. So I wonder if its possible that my coil is bad out of the box? The points are gapped at .015 per specs; the carb was completely rebuilt and so forth too...

Anyone have an idea? Im starting to get irritated by this thing now...
 
Take a wire from the ignition side of the battery and run it to the coil. Most of the time you should see a spark when you touch that wire there. If no spark try turning the engine over a bit and try again. No spark means you have something wrong as in an open circuit. If you get a spark there try leaving it hooked up and see if it starts/has spark. If you have spark then you have a wiring problem form the coil back to the battery. By the way I just told you how to hot wire it
 

Seems like the only thing Im missing is the spark

After trying OLD's suggestion.

Are you in fact getting a spark?
Did you check to visibly see a spark?
Can the spark jump a spark plug gapped to about a 1/4" and grounded to the engine?
Check clean and re-gap points
 
Put a meter on the wire to the coil. It should read somewhere in the 3 volts range if you are still stock 6 volts. If nothing check the resistor under the dashpanel. Of course, the "hotwire" trick should work. These things don't have much voltage to the coil so everything has to be good. But they will work!
 
"Put a meter on the wire to the coil. It should read somewhere in the 3 volts range if you are still stock 6 volts."

This would be "close" if the points are closed.
It should read full battery voltage if the points are open.
The difference between the two voltages can tell you if your
points are opening and closing correctly when you turn it over.
 
I had to go back and look at your previous posts.
I came up with this: 9N, 12V conversion, no spark. Right?
How did you wire the ignition?

Alternator and charging system doesn't really matter at this point.
All it needs to run electrically is the ignition. (A starter helps too,
but not necessary)

You said you set the gap at .015, good. I assume you set the
timing while you had the distributor off. It only goes back on one
way so you should be Ok there.

"even added the switch for some eyeballs" I'm not following here.

How are you checking for spark at the plugs? A tester is good.
But an old plug widened out and well grounded will work.
 
[b:7934f8f4c8][i:7934f8f4c8]
LR;
"even added the switch for some eyeballs" I'm not following here.

I'm guessing, that is his way of saying....'Headlights'?????

GB :?: [/i:7934f8f4c8][/b:7934f8f4c8]
 
(quoted from post at 00:27:57 03/06/15) [b:91bd216f71][i:91bd216f71]
LR;
"even added the switch for some eyeballs" I'm not following here.

I'm guessing, that is his way of saying....'Headlights'?????

GB :?: [/i:91bd216f71][/b:91bd216f71]
Gotcha, makes sense, but what does that have to do with ignition/spark?
I like to separate those systems and fix one at a time.
Yes they can interact, but it's easier for me to solve one at a time.
Hard to get good help now-a-days ya know! ;)
 
(quoted from post at 00:37:39 03/06/15)
(quoted from post at 00:27:57 03/06/15) [b:166e6f060e][i:166e6f060e]
LR;
"even added the switch for some eyeballs" I'm not following here.

I'm guessing, that is his way of saying....'Headlights'?????

GB :?: [/i:166e6f060e][/b:166e6f060e]
Gotcha, makes sense, but what does that have to do with ignition/spark?
I like to separate those systems and fix one at a time.
Yes they can interact, but it's easier for me to solve one at a time.
Hard to get good help now-a-days ya know! ;)

Royse guessing he's talking about a front mount since he said he gapped it at .015. He also stated that hooking up a light switch and he got nada.
So now my question is, is the light switch and the ignition switch wire hooked up to the correct junction screw of the ballast resistor junction block where the 12v feed is connected.
 
A meter in the hands of a person taught to use them work fine but few have a clue how to use them so I tell it the simple no clue way. Yes I was taught I was a Navy E.T. but as I said few know how to use a meter so my way is a no clue works way
 
(quoted from post at 18:19:40 03/05/15) Take a wire from the ignition side of the battery and run it to the coil.

Im assuming you mean the top post of the coil - Ill try the hot wire method in the AM and see if that works. Everything else is wired correctly and its a 12V system

I did manage to ground a plug to the block and didn't get a spark there either so Im thinking the distributor needs to be regapped and cleaned...

I will go about it again when im a bit more awake lol
 
(quoted from post at 21:27:57 03/05/15) [b:69dc8250cd][i:69dc8250cd]
LR;
"even added the switch for some eyeballs" I'm not following here.

I'm guessing, that is his way of saying....'Headlights'?????

GB :?: [/i:69dc8250cd][/b:69dc8250cd]

Yes - headlights lol
 
Its wired per this diagram...
mvphoto17233.jpg
 
Royse, I use my method sense it is a no brainier way to do thing. Most people do not own a meter and the ones that do have no clue how to use them. Ya me I have been trained to use a meter and an O-Scope and a good many other electronic tools but I have been in Navy A and B schools for electronics. I learned years ago to keep it simple so the spark test does just that. I do it all the time and that tells me if the points are good or bad or need to be cleaned. That is how many tractors where winched up on a trailer and drove off under there own power
 
Yes front mount distributor has only the one wire hook up to hot wire it. By the way if you put in new points it is easy to short things out when you do and that could also be a problem
 
(quoted from post at 21:13:49 03/05/15) You said you set the gap at .015, good. I assume you set the
timing while you had the distributor off. It only goes back on one way

I didn't mess with any timing; unbolted the distributor and put it back in where the two teeth like structures line up with the split in the block...[/i]
 
(quoted from post at 22:23:59 03/05/15) Yes front mount distributor has only the one wire hook up to hot wire it. By the way if you put in new points it is easy to short things out when you do and that could also be a problem

Id gather You leave the main ignition wire which is on top of the coil hooked up to the center post of the resistor block per that diagram and then a completely separate wire directly from the battery to the top of the coil; hence completing a circut per se...
 
Yes by doing a hot wire you take out every thing from the coil back as a way to trouble shoot where the problem is. I use a simple no brainier method to trouble shoot that most people can do and it takes no fancy tools to do it. I was taught to use the fancy tools when I was in the navy but learned that many times going fancy just makes it harder to figure out unless you have the knowledge to use the fancy stuff
 
(quoted from post at 22:35:31 03/05/15) Yes by doing a hot wire you take out every thing from the coil back as a way to trouble shoot where the problem is. I use a simple no brainier method to trouble shoot that most people can do and it takes no fancy tools to do it. I was taught to use the fancy tools when I was in the navy but learned that many times going fancy just makes it harder to figure out unless you have the knowledge to use the fancy stuff

Thats my kinda fix LOL!
 
Ya most people can understand a spark but when it comes to ohms and voltage it can get tricky plus who owns a meter that is truly calibrated. So on one meter a guy may see 5 ohms and on another 7 ohms and that can make a big difference when your looking for 3 ohm
 
(quoted from post at 01:26:38 03/06/15)
(quoted from post at 22:23:59 03/05/15) Yes front mount distributor has only the one wire hook up to hot wire it. By the way if you put in new points it is easy to short things out when you do and that could also be a problem

Id gather You leave the main ignition wire which is on top of the coil hooked up to the center post of the resistor block per that diagram and then a completely separate wire directly from the battery to the top of the coil; hence completing a circut per se...
Id gather You leave the main ignition wire which is on top of the coil hooked up to the center post of the resistor block per that diagram....." That is NOT what the diagram shows. Take a re-look.
 
Here is the morning update!
I attempted the hotwire trick after double checking all of my wiring and there was no spark at all still...There was a spark at the top of the coil when running the hot wire off the positive terminal to the battery; not a big one but at least it was a spark!!!

Removed the entire distributor, coil and rotor cap, cleaned that all up again and checked my gap at all the points to where the .015 feeler gauge fit snug but loose enough that I was able to slide it out no problem. Cleaned the back portion of the distributor shaft, there was a bit of rust on it but nothing too bad...got that off and reassembled the entire unit then put it back on the tractor. Made sure the condenser was screwed down tight and all internal screws on the distributor were squared away and tight. Put a brand new 12V coil on it, plugged all the wires in and turned it over - STILL no spark.

Removed the #3 spark plug wire and grabbed one of the old plugs. I took a bare piece of copper wire and grounded it to the block then plugged in the old spark plug and turned it over...No visible spark at all coming off the electrode to the plug.

Removed all plugs, added the little silver washers which were not added initially when replacing the plugs, removed the entire hood and replaced the plugs.

NOW! I know its getting fuel since the spark plugs had gas on them so I know its getting fuel and air...But there is no spark...Im seriously NOT amused.
 
" I know its getting fuel since the spark plugs had gas on them so I know its getting fuel"

Yes, it's getting fuel & you flooded it.

Replace the plugs. You flooded it, they're fouled & it will be it next to impossible to start. You don't need to toss them; heat the tips for a few seconds w/ a propane torch to burn off the invisible spark-robbing deposits from today's additive filled gasoline........or wash them in lacquer thinner. And there is no need whatsoever to remove the hood to replace the plugs.

Assuming that the bushings & advance weights are ok (*see below), & that you have correct voltage to the coil (battery voltage with the points open and about half that with the points closed), the problem is in the distributor.

Once you get the distributor on the bench, the first thing you need to check is bushing wear. If the shaft has any sideways movement AT ALL, the bushings must be replaced.

The most common electrical failure (no spark, weak spark) points on the front mount are:

1. The insulator under the brass concave head screw & where the copper strip attaches. (it’s fiber & will wear out; poke & prod w/ your meter leads to make sure it still works) If you need to replace the insulator, use a .250 x 3/8 nylon square nylon anchor nut available at most big box home stores

2. The pigtail at the bottom of the coil not making contact w/ the concave head brass screw inside the distributor. (With the coil on, the pigtail must firmly contact the brass screw. No contact = no spark

3. The copper strip is broken or grounded to the plate. (look very carefully for cracks & breaks).

4. The condenser wire grounding to the plate or side of the distributor.

5. The tab on the bottom of the coil not making contact w/ the brass button on the cap. (With the cap on, the tab must firmly contact the brass button. No contact = no spark.)

6. Incorrect positioning of the spring clip on the plate causing the pigtail to ground. (the open part of the clip goes between 7 & 9 o’clock on the plate. That puts the straight part of the clip opposite of the timing screw at 3 o’clock)

7. Incorrect seating of the coil on the distributor due to a loose bail or no gasket.(the coil must not move at all; if it does, replace the gasket or bail. Or stick some cardboard under the bail).

8. Water/moisture inside the cap due to gasket failure or the absence of a gasket. (the cap AND coil have gaskets)

9. Dirty/corroded/burned/incorrectly gapped or misaligned points. I use only Wells, Blue Streak or Echlin brand points (* *see below). If you are using quality points and cannot get the gap to open to .015, chances are you need to replace the bushings.

10. Burned rotor, cracked/carbon tracked cap.
After you find the problem & re-check the point gap, do a continuity check before you put the distributor back on the tractor. Before you start, make sure your meter/light works.

With the distributor still off the tractor, follow these steps:

1. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other on both sides of the open points. On the side closest to the cam, you should have continuity. Not on the other side! If you do, you will also have continuity everywhere because the points are grounded.

2. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity! Now, rotate the tang on the distributor....as the points open & close, you have continuity (closed) and lose it when they open.

3. Put the coil on the distributor, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other on the cam side of the open points. You should have continuity!

4. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity!

At this point, I just put the distributor, coil & cap all back on the tractor as a unit. The reason I do this is because it is real easy to get the cap or coil misaligned trying to put it back together, one piece at a time. The result is something gets broken or you get a ‘no spark’ problem.

It's possible to put it back on wrong & break it. Look at the slot on the end of the cam shaft. Whatever angle it happens to be, turn the distributor tang to match it. Make sure you can tell the wide side from the narrow side on both the cam & distributor! (close counts). Place the distributor on the front of the engine, gently push it in place & slowly turn the distributor body until you feel the tang slip into the slot. Rotate the distributor body until the bolt holes line up. Hand tighten the two bolts until the distributor body is flush with the timing gear cover.


* Unscrew the plate hold down screw & remove the C clip to get the plate out. Remove the shaft & weights. The weights should freely move.


* *NAPA part numbers:
• Points: FD-6769X
• Condenser: FD-71
• Rotor: FD-104
• Cap: FD-126
75 Tips
 
(quoted from post at 11:28:44 03/06/15) " I know its getting fuel since the spark plugs had gas on them so I know its getting fuel"

Yes, it's getting fuel & you flooded it.

Replace the plugs. You flooded it, they're fouled & it will be it next to impossible to start. You don't need to toss them; heat the tips for a few seconds w/ a propane torch to burn off the invisible spark-robbing deposits from today's additive filled gasoline........or wash them in lacquer thinner. And there is no need whatsoever to remove the hood to replace the plugs.

Assuming that the bushings & advance weights are ok (*see below), & that you have correct voltage to the coil (battery voltage with the points open and about half that with the points closed), the problem is in the distributor.

Once you get the distributor on the bench, the first thing you need to check is bushing wear. If the shaft has any sideways movement AT ALL, the bushings must be replaced.
[b:754ffecfb1]
There was no play in the shaft or the bushings - That I did check previously. [/b:754ffecfb1]


The most common electrical failure (no spark, weak spark) points on the front mount are:

1. The insulator under the brass concave head screw & where the copper strip attaches. (it’s fiber & will wear out; poke & prod w/ your meter leads to make sure it still works) If you need to replace the insulator, use a .250 x 3/8 nylon square nylon anchor nut available at most big box home stores

[b:754ffecfb1]I checked this to start with - I didn't see any sort of copper strip that would attach to it. The only part I can see is the White Nylon square nut wasn't close to where the pigtail would hit from the coil so I did adjust that by bending it up a bit and making sure it did not touch the outside of the distributor casing. I'll post pictures in my next post after I try all your tips which I greatly appreciate you taking the time to drop all the information here.
[/b:754ffecfb1]

2. The pigtail at the bottom of the coil not making contact w/ the concave head brass screw inside the distributor. (With the coil on, the pigtail must firmly contact the brass screw. No contact = no spark

3. The copper strip is broken or grounded to the plate. (look very carefully for cracks & breaks).

[b:754ffecfb1]I'm gathering this is the strip that is attached to the metal piece where the points are located. The copper and im assuming nickle piece under the copper are straight and no cracks or breaks. [/b:754ffecfb1]

4. The condenser wire grounding to the plate or side of the distributor.

[b:754ffecfb1]I checked this as well - It's not grounded anywhere, but it is hooked to the top of the brass screw as previously mentioned.[/b:754ffecfb1]

5. The tab on the bottom of the coil not making contact w/ the brass button on the cap. (With the cap on, the tab must firmly contact the brass button. No contact = no spark.)

[b:754ffecfb1]I'll check the bend in it and try it again - If that's the case then I'd be impressed; but I dont think that is the problem...
[/b:754ffecfb1]

6. Incorrect positioning of the spring clip on the plate causing the pigtail to ground. (the open part of the clip goes between 7 & 9 o’clock on the plate. That puts the straight part of the clip opposite of the timing screw at 3 o’clock)

[b:754ffecfb1]It's perfectly situated - Sitting right where you have described.[/b:754ffecfb1]

7. Incorrect seating of the coil on the distributor due to a loose bail or no gasket.(the coil must not move at all; if it does, replace the gasket or bail. Or stick some cardboard under the bail).

[b:754ffecfb1]I will be adding a new gasket to make sure it seats correctly - If I recall, it was loose on top of the distributor without the gasket firmly seated. [/b:754ffecfb1]

8. Water/moisture inside the cap due to gasket failure or the absence of a gasket. (the cap AND coil have gaskets)

[b:754ffecfb1]Same as above[/b:754ffecfb1]

I'll start with the top 9 things and go from there - Stand by 1 for more pictures.
Nate
 
Here is the one time meter can help you. With the distributor still off the tractor and the points are open make sure you have an open circuit as in NO ohms. If with the points open and you get anything but an open circuit you have a short in the distributor and a short will cause you to have no spark forever. Spark is produced by the points opening so if the circuit never opens you get no spark
 
Pix 2

This is the screw that holds down the condensor - Its been like this so I dont know if this would pose a problem or not


Top view
 
It's all back together now, The coil defiantly fits more snug on the top with the gasket, there was no play in the cam shaft side to side and I removed the longer screw to add in a shorter one so it wasn't touching inside the casing at all. Gaps were cleaned and I'll check the ohms here in a little bit to make sure it isn't getting any current with the points opened....

The sad part is this is a simple system; and I should be able to figure it out...However, Its a system that while I understand how it works, It still confuses me...
Nate
 
(quoted from post at 15:40:21 03/06/15) It's all back together now, The coil defiantly fits more snug on the top with the gasket, there was no play in the cam shaft side to side and I removed the longer screw to add in a shorter one so it wasn't touching inside the casing at all. Gaps were cleaned and I'll check the ohms here in a little bit to make sure it isn't getting any current with the points opened....

The sad part is this is a simple system; and I should be able to figure it out...However, Its a system that while I understand how it works, It still confuses me...
Nate
ure not going to work as pictured! You have no electrical connection to the points!!
 

Ha! Its your wiring diagram that has about saved me a ton if headache thus far. But other than the obvious that its not connected to the tractor...What is it missing? LoL
 
(quoted from post at 15:53:18 03/06/15)
Ha! Its your wiring diagram that has about saved me a ton if headache thus far. But other than the obvious that its not connected to the tractor...What is it missing? LoL
Copper strap marked in yellow:
 
(quoted from post at 12:58:14 03/06/15)
(quoted from post at 15:53:18 03/06/15)
Ha! Its your wiring diagram that has about saved me a ton if headache thus far. But other than the obvious that its not connected to the tractor...What is it missing? LoL
Copper strap marked in yellow:

Yeah....It has no strap connecting the top of that brass wire to the spring arm thing...So where do I get the strap?
 
May be able to make one from a piece of an old points set. Copper flashing from home improvement store. Insulated scrap of wire. Imagination kicks in.
 
"Royse, I use my method sense it is a no brainier way to do thing. Most people do not own a meter and the ones that do have no clue how to use them. Ya me I have been trained to use a meter and an O-Scope and a good many other electronic tools but I have been in Navy A and B schools for electronics. I learned years ago to keep it simple so the spark test does just that. I do it all the time and that tells me if the points are good or bad or need to be cleaned. That is how many tractors where winched up on a trailer and drove off under there own power"

I wasn't the one who suggested a meter Rich, but I do
understand what you're doing and in many cases it works.

In this case, it wouldn't have said anything about the points since they
weren't hooked up and he did get a spark. (That may still need to be addressed.)

After my stint in the Navy (12 1/2 years) I took a job teaching electronics
for San Diego Community College. That experience put me in contact with
a lot of people trying to learn how to use a meter and from that experience
I disagree with your assessment of the average person's intelligence.

I assure you that "most people" CAN read a meter, even if they aren't sure where
to connect it until you show them and explain what they should see and why.

Teach a man to fish so to speak.
 
(quoted from post at 06:30:25 03/07/15) "Royse, I use my method sense it is a no brainier way to do thing. Most people do not own a meter and the ones that do have no clue how to use them. Ya me I have been trained to use a meter and an O-Scope and a good many other electronic tools but I have been in Navy A and B schools for electronics. I learned years ago to keep it simple so the spark test does just that. I do it all the time and that tells me if the points are good or bad or need to be cleaned. That is how many tractors where winched up on a trailer and drove off under there own power"

I wasn't the one who suggested a meter Rich, but I do
understand what you're doing and in many cases it works.

In this case, it wouldn't have said anything about the points since they
weren't hooked up and he did get a spark. (That may still need to be addressed.)

After my stint in the Navy (12 1/2 years) I took a job teaching electronics
for San Diego Community College. That experience put me in contact with
a lot of people trying to learn how to use a meter and from that experience
I disagree with your assessment of the average person's intelligence.

I assure you that "most people" CAN read a meter, even if they aren't sure where
to connect it until you show them and explain what they should see and why.

Teach a man to fish so to speak.

I believe one of'ya...:wink: The other well has enuff hot air to Toot a horn that's about it...
 
I had the training in avionics so a meter is my best friend. Thanks for the help with this though - its alive and running without any problems As far as driveability goes...Have a Hydraulic issue I think though. Ill start a new thread with that lol
 
(quoted from post at 04:22:10 03/08/15) I had the training in avionics so a meter is my best friend. Thanks for the help with this though - its alive and running without any problems As far as driveability goes...Have a Hydraulic issue I think though. Ill start a new thread with that lol

Our resident trained killer forgot his so called training and figgers everyone else did also...

A meter would have lead you astray anyways because you were dealing with a open circuit...
 
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