Stuff is getting chincher

[the tractor vet]

M Y MY , how stuff gets clincher as time passes . I am doing a LITTLE rewiring here at the house and also after 30 plus years i got the old coal cellar cleaned out and decided to move some of my smaller wood working tools in there to free up some lacking space i don't have . I wanted to add a new line for my new toy i got for them small household welding jobs as i got a good Steal on a new in the box Lincoln 140 C with a new small tank FULL for 500 bucks . After talking to the guy i get my normal welding supplys from for the past 35 years he told me to run a heavier line and even though it says a 20 Amp system will run it he told me to step it up a bit so i ran 10 ga. on a 30 amp and added a plug outside . And also wanted to add in four wall plugs on a new 20 amp line . well my stock of 12 ga wire was gone from when i rewired this OLD house and While at lowes i saw they had 12 ga. for 58 bucks then take off my 10% so i grabbed a roll . Well this afternoon i was doing my thing getting this wire run and i THOUGH gesses this stuff seams really small for 12 ga. and while putting it into a work box next to OLD 35 year old 12 ga. ya can see the difference line .006 smaller or the old stuff is getting fatter , even the outside is smaller almost the same as 14 ga. . I have not looked at the NEW 14 ga. as i still have a ton of that left over . It says it is 12 ga but matches up on the outside with old 14 .

 

[kcm.MN]

I don't even buy 14ga. anymore. Last time I looked at 12ga., my thoughts were the same as yours. Looked too darn small. I know some of it could be thinner sheathing with better insulative properties, but what about durability? This new stuff is so thin it would make me nervous to have to fish it through a corner in a wall.

On the other hand, the last new house we owned came with nails [i:91d58a7200]and[/i:91d58a7200] staples through the wiring, wires that were not properly attached, one wire that had been cut off and was left dangling in the wall cavity while live, and many, many more fun things. That's one reason we bought an old house that needed all-new wiring. It may not be nearly as pretty as Phillip D does, but I know it's safe!

 

[Dusty MI]

#12 copper wire is 0.0808" in dia.
#14 " " " 0.0641" in dia.
I would take that Romex back to Lowe's and show them that wire is NOT #12.

A few years ago I bought a new Lincoln wire welder, 120 volt, thinking that if needed I could use an extension cord. Well, the welder draws more than 20 amp. when turned turned all the up.
Not sure about the cord, they are rated different than building wire, but the cord cap is only rated at only 15 amp.
I had used #10 romex and 20a receptacle and breaker.
After I found that a 20a breaker would hold, I put a 25 amp breaker in.
20a Receptacles will also work with a 15a cord cap. Be sure to use a 20a receptacle.
Manufactures can get away with things that electricians cannot.

Waiting to see what John T has to say.


Dusty

 

[the tractor vet]

this stuff measured .077-8 and the old stuff best i could get on it in the box was over .084 or so . Maybe i should call the FTC or should i let the insurance company sue Lowes when the house burns down ????? . I wanted a 25 amp breaker BUT none of the BIG box stores has a signal pole 25 . Yes for wall plugs on 12 ga. i run all 20 amp plugs . Only 15 amp stuff is ceiling lights and wall scooches . . Now as for the welder and extension cord The guy at the weld shop advise here again a 10ga. cord.


He was telling me that MOST all fried pro migs that come back is due to low voltage due to to small cords and low line voltage . He was telling me that the 10ga and nothing over fifty feet . So i will listen to what Jay was telling me .

 

[the tractor vet]

When i bought this OLD HOUSE to get my grandmother into a nursing home after i footed the bill for four months out of pocket i knew it needed everything . At the time i was running all over on service calls going to sales out of state and also helping a friend put in a 105 acre housing development . I tried to get some of the contractors working on them big fancy 3250 and up Sq Ft Homes to do the rewire and the min you told them this was in a 120 year old house they wanted nothing to do with it , So due to the fact that there were only four FUSES for this oold house and one was for the furnace and you could NOT run and electric coffee maker and a toaster at the same time or run a hair dryer with out popping a fuse or run the TV and three lights at the same time it needed rewired and the only way that was going to happen was IF i did it and what a learning curve . Drilling garnet might have been easier and running into and old CUT nail would bring out the weak points in a good drill fast . Ya could NOT use any wood Boring bits and had a machinist friend make a drill bit that would cut thru the old nails . Found out that all the OUTSIDE facing walls were over and inch and a half thick with tong and grove double dovetail popular from the first floor to the attic , those old 8x8 Oak beams were tougher then the best sawall blades and no your not going to use a GOOD 3/8th drill and bore any holes . You had to be creative in how you ran wires . Also at the time my carpentry tools were nill to none and my electrical tools were none and then came plumbing . well the pipes don't leak and the hosue has not burned down and the cold air does not come whistle thru anymore .

 

[CenTex Farmall]

With modern machinery, I wouldn't be surprised if some are manufacturing right to the bottom tolerance limit of what will legally pass spec for 12 ga.

 

[Stephen Newell]

Something is a miss, the wire size should be the same. Now the insulation on the old wire was thicker but the copper part shouldn't change. What is chincher is electricians today are wiring all the outlets in a house with 14ga wire. Personally I wouldn't use 14ga wire for anything but lighting but normally I carry 12ga wire and wire all of it with that.

 

[MarkB_MI]

I think you mean "chintzier".

Are you saying the CONDUCTOR on the new wire is smaller or the INSULATION? If the insulation is smaller, there's no reason to be concerned as long as the wire is rated for at or above the voltage it needs to carry.

 

[the tractor vet]

The wire it's self is THINNER , SMALLER IN Dia. It is half way between 14 and 12 . The insulation is smaller . BUT it does say 12-2 with ground . And a far cry from what i paid for 12 ga. 30 some years ago . back then a 250 ft. roll of 14-2 romex was 9.98 and the 12 -2 was 12 .98 . This stuff on SALE was 58 and change at the Homer Depot it is 64 and change . If you by a fifty foot roll of 10-2 romex it is 64-86 depending where you buy it BUT if you BUY it in 25 foot rolls at Lowes it is 28 and change for 25 foot and ever though i went to Podoc Jct high school two 25 foot rolls come out to fifty foot OLD SCHOOL math and it is cheaper even figuring in a work box and cover and some wire nuts . Now if True value had it like they say they do on the Roll and by the foot that was the way to go BUT they do not have it by the foot in the stores.

 

[dr sportster]

There are specs : 12 awg should measure .0808 if not it is not that size . Measure with calipers and return if not that diameter . Plain and simple .0808

 

[Caryc]

(quoted from post at 05:40:09 08/18/20)[color=red:97a6dc3c54][b:97a6dc3c54] I think you mean "chintzier".[/b:97a6dc3c54]
[/color:97a6dc3c54]
Are you saying the CONDUCTOR on the new wire is smaller or the INSULATION? If the insulation is smaller, there's no reason to be concerned as long as the wire is rated for at or above the voltage it needs to carry.

Thank you. Since no one was saying anything, I was starting to wonder if "chincher" was some term I never heard of.

 

[Bob - MI]

I would be interested in knowing what brand the wire roll is. I have also noticed that 12ga is easier to work with now days than before and 14ga has me wondering if it's too thin. I also find myself running more 12ga today than before.

I generally buy wiring from Menard's so it's most often Southwire brand. I had chalked it up to a revision of the standard to reduce diameter and save copper. If there's no revision on the standard and that wire is out of spec that far we should all be concerned. Everything is getting re-designed to make it cheaper.

Aircraft parts are no exception on pricing pressure. Our largest customer is up in arms that we need to increase prices after 7 years. At this point I have trouble caring about what they think.

 

[DoubleO7]

https://www.southwire.com/contact-us

Contact them and ask why so undersize.

If you have a bolt or drill size guide or index, ask them how come the copper fits through the 5/64" or maybe even the # 48 drill size hole. And you can send them a picture to prove it.

 

[dr sportster]

Actually it is closer to a number 46 drill bit which is .081 [the size you need it to be. 48 is .075 too small ] Measure with calipers look for 081 .If not wrong wire

 

[DoubleO7]

(quoted from post at 16:54:20 08/18/20) Actually it is closer to a number 46 drill bit which is .081 [the size you need it to be. 48 is .075 too small ] Measure with calipers look for 081 .If not wrong wire

Yes for the right size wire.
But if you want to show how small it is to southwire, stick it into the smallest hole it will go into, send picture.

 

[the tractor vet]

This is NEW SOUTH WIRE , Lowes has pallet loads of this NEW wire that they are calling 12.Ga, it has the fancy Yellow covering , it states it is 12-2 and according to my wire strippers The 12 Ga opening is almost to big to cut the the insulation clean and the 14 slot is just a whisker to snug . Now not being a professional electrician and not working with this every day i don't know when they scaled back on the size , What i do know is this 12 Ga is NOT the old 12 ga i put in the house years ago in wire size and over all size of the wire. So i guess we need to call this stuff 13 ga. So maybe it is NOT 20 amp capable but more the 15 amp . So we will call it 18 amp .

 

[TomA in CA]

I think I know what the vet means by
"chincher".
I am getting so I can't spell in my
old age so I will try it this way.
chin-see-er

 

[1948CaseVAI]

(quoted from post at 00:01:02 08/18/20) With modern machinery, I wouldn't be surprised if some are manufacturing right to the bottom tolerance limit of what will legally pass spec for 12 ga.

Exactly! Everything has a tolerance. I was taught at the paper mill I worked in that we wanted to hit the very bottom of the tolerance (on several parameters) because we did not get paid any more for hitting the middle or top, but it cost more to run.

 

[Caryc]

(quoted from post at 10:10:21 08/19/20)

(quoted from post at 00:01:02 08/18/20) With modern machinery, I wouldn't be surprised if some are manufacturing right to the bottom tolerance limit of what will legally pass spec for 12 ga.

Exactly! Everything has a tolerance. I was taught at the paper mill I worked in that we wanted to hit the very bottom of the tolerance (on several parameters) because we did not get paid any more for hitting the middle or top, but it cost more to run.

Trouble is that they don't tell you what their tolerances are and where the range in there.

 

[the tractor vet]

Yea i know my spelling is not going to win any national awards but atleast i can FIX things design and build on the fly , run anything on tires or tracks and also and outstanding driver and i excel at ticking people off .
I tell it like it is .

 

[Scott D Orbaker]

Hey vet
Your description of your house wiring sounds like the farm house on the old "Green Acres" tv show.

 

[the tractor vet]

Well yea i guess . Many times i have had fowl words spoken about the old carpenter who was so proud of his handy work on the build of THIS OLD house as He signed and Dated every piece of trim he installed . The petrified old wood , the hand cut nails that came from the old nail factory down the street a couple blocks away them 4 and a 1/2 inch finish nails driven into the walls that are such fun to pull out that look like they were made out of #9 wire , then coming up with a way to get them out of the trim with out destroying the 9 inch base boards or the 7 inch casements all of which was red oak that you just don't run out to the big box store to get a new piece to replace anything you destroyed because it is NOT 3/4 thick it is 7/8ths thick . To redo the ceilings and walls to get rid of the old horse hair plaster ya had to find 2 1/2 inch dry wall screws to get into studs thru the tong and grove double dove tail 1 and 1/4 solid wood lath as it was soft poplar and a standard dry wall screw would pull out . what started out as a remodel ended up having to gear up to full blowen wood working and milling and trips to a lumber mill to get rough sawed and make the pieces that broke . I still need to make up more cap moldings and door stop for around the windows. due to the extension jams i had to make up to make up for the dry wall over how they made things line up with plaster . . Can not tell you how many feet of gas pipe i removed as this old house had gas lites in the ceilings and some walls . Then came the peg and post electric with plugs in the floors . I just got the last of the peg and post wire all tore out .

 

[paul]

Kinda like 3/4 inch plywood doesn’t measure 3/4 inch any more.

Whatever we can get away with to cheat people.......

Paul

 

[kcm.MN]

(quoted from post at 07:36:26 08/20/20) Hey vet
Your description of your house wiring sounds like the farm house on the old "Green Acres" tv show.

Actually, I might be able to take that honor. :-

 

[kevinstuff]

Their is a difference in the heat rating between the old
wire and new as the new stuff is rated at higher heat , but
yes I am surprised McDonalds does'nt take a bite out of your
hamburger before they wrap it up. 1 micro thin pickle, 3 drops ketchup
2 drops mustard . I think they are onions? all on a bun that will constipate you for days