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Super C Ignition

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Stihl441

Member
Been working on a Super C for a while now. The rascal was
cranking but not taking off. Replaced points, condenser,
plugs, wires, rotor, lots of wires. Still just cranked. Next,
replaced the coil. Now nothing at all.



Looking for help from the guys way smarter than myself.

Thanks in advance!
 
Your first mistake was not trouble shooting before parts, which tend to add more problem them fix them. I'd start by charging the battery. Then check that you have a good blue/white spark at the center wire of the distributor cap and at al 4 plugs that jump a 1/4 inch gap or more. Next pull the carb drain plug and make sure you have a good steady flow of gas that will fill a pint jar in less then 3 minutes and 2 is even better
 
(quoted from post at 19:12:42 06/18/22) Been working on a Super C for a while now. The rascal was
cranking but not taking off. Replaced points, condenser,
plugs, wires, rotor, lots of wires. Still just cranked. Next,
replaced the coil. Now nothing at all.



Looking for help from the guys way smarter than myself.

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

Back in March John T gave you a trouble shooting process. Did you follow through that step by step? You should post the results of what you found at each step. All I am seeing is what parts you replaced, not the reason that led to the replacement. Sorry to seem harsh, but just changing parts doesn't always get the desired results, as seems to be apparent here. People here can't lay hands on your tractor to check things themselves, they need to see what the recommended diagnostic procedure results are to best help you.
 
Thanks. Already rebuilt the carb and added an inline filter. Good flow. Battery is at 12 volts. Spark at the plugs.
Rewired almost the entire tractor.
 
Thanks John. You sent me that list a while back, which was extraordinarily helpful. Per list, there is power and spark where there needs to be.
 
If all you have at the battery is 12 volts it is discharged. A full charged battery will read 12.6 volt plus. In line filters tend to cause more problem then they fix
 
What problems are those? Grandpa had them on all of his tractors, with no problems, but they werent being worked. Just hay rack rides, parades, that sort of thing.
 
Most in line filters are made for fuel systems with a fuel pump as in they need 7 plus PSI for fuel to flow well. Your tractor is gravity flow so they clog easy and quickly
 
(quoted from post at 20:58:09 06/19/22) What problems are those? Grandpa had them on all of his tractors, with no problems, but they werent being worked. Just hay rack rides, parades, that sort of thing.
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e and others just like to say that! I say BS, as this atv is 20 years old and look at the "near zero" pressure head & it has always worked just fine and still does!"
 
(quoted from post at 18:16:43 06/19/22) Most in line filters are made for fuel systems with a fuel pump as in they need 7 plus PSI for fuel to flow well. Your tractor is gravity flow so they clog easy and quickly
Click to expand...

On the contrary, I have used many in-line paper gas filters on gravity systems over the years with no issues.

I helps to arrange them vertically, with the inlet at the top, and the fuel line sloping upwards to the tank so any air just bubbles upward to the tank leaving all the filtering media exposed to fuel.

Dunno where the magic number ''7 psi and above'' would come from???

(As always, YAMMV!)
 
But it would only clog by trapping fuel contaminants. Seems like thats just it doing its job. Better to have that clog that rebuild a carb.
 
But if the filter clogs after the sediment bowl does its job, doesnt that tell you the sediment bowl didnt remove all of the sediment?
Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to make it make sense in my own head.
 
Again is has to do with how some filters are. They don't work well with out a fuel pump pushing the fuel in and out of them. I've fixed at least 40 tractor by throwing the inline filter as far from them as I could and they then ran just fine
 
Those paper type inline fuel filters work just fine, as long as it is for a gravity flow system. Like for a lawnmower. I use ones like these on mine with no problems, and they are used for work
cvphoto128678.jpg
 
Does anyone know the carb adjustments for the super C? I have a shop manual, but theres no section for carb adjustments. I can fine-tune once I get it close.
 
If it has 2 adjustable setting the upper one you set at 1.5 turn out from the bottom and pretty much leave it. The lower one 2 turns out and then adjust from there. If all is right you should be able to open the lower one up to the point you get black smoke as in running to rich so then back it in till the smoke stops
 
check drive gears between dist. and drive.the slotted pipe plug is where you add the lube,most get overlooked when servicing causing gears to rust/wear until they jump time
 

I m sure you re all thrilled to hear from me again. Haha got it to crank again. Kill switch wires got chewed up by mice. Not sure why it showed voltage at coil, but regardless, it s cranking again.

Good spark at all 4 plugs, so electric should be set. Carb is adjusted properly. Good gas to it. Easy to flood. Still won t start. Just cranking. Next trouble-shooting tip? Getting a little White smoke out of the exhaust. Thanks gentlemen!
 
You say you have spark at the plugs but is it a blue/white in color and does it jump a 1/4 inch gap or more?? If you pull the plugs out are they wet with gas?? If they are there gas fouled and will not spark when that way
 
(quoted from post at 22:09:24 07/02/22) You say you have spark at the plugs but is it a blue/white in color and does it jump a 1/4 inch gap or more?? If you pull the plugs out are they wet with gas?? If they are there gas fouled and will not spark when that way
Click to expand...

Yes. Spark is blue and jumped about 1/2 and inch. Plugs smell a little gassy, but dry.
 
Is the compression good or is it super low?? If you pull the air cleaner tube off and crank it while holding your hand over the air intake of the carb do you get a good suction and does your hand get covered with gas??
 
(quoted from post at 00:29:10 07/03/22) Is the compression good or is it super low?? If you pull the air cleaner tube off and crank it while holding your hand over the air intake of the carb do you get a good suction and does your hand get covered with gas??
Click to expand...

Yes, very good compression. Hand doesn t get COVERED with gas, but it splatters some.
 
(quoted from post at 20:18:06 07/03/22) If you hand doesn't get gas on it you may have a carb problem. How is the vacuum from doing that?? Good and strong or weak
Click to expand...
Suction is very strong. New carb, that will flood if cranked a while with the choke out.
 
(quoted from post at 22:40:29 07/03/22) Are you sure the timing is where it should be.
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As far as plug wires running from distributor to spark plugs, yes. 1-3-4-2 clockwise on the distributor cap.
 
I've seen and fix more then one engine where the person believed they had the fire order right but had it 180 out. If I where you I would swap plug wires across the cap as in swap them across the center post and try starting it. If it starts well you know what was wrong if it doesn't start you should also get a back fire or 2
 
(quoted from post at 14:57:44 07/03/22)
(quoted from post at 22:40:29 07/03/22) Are you sure the timing is where it should be.
Click to expand...

As far as plug wires running from distributor to spark plugs, yes. 1-3-4-2 clockwise on the distributor cap.
Click to expand...

Some questions to think about. I don't need answers, but something for you to think about:

Did this tractor run when it was parked?

How long was it parked?

If it didn't run when it was parked, it may have jumped timing long ago, and someone just gave up on it. You could replace all of the electrical components and have fabulous spark in the correct order... but all at the wrong time. There was a mention in some of the previous comments that these tractors' distributors could jump time. That would be a strong consideration if it wasn't running when parked, and now won't run with apparently strong spark and gas at the plugs.

If it ran when parked, but has been parked for a long time, you could have one or more stuck valves. These "hand over the carburetor" and "checking the plugs for gas" methods of testing for compression are interesting, but they are systemic. If you have valves that are either stuck or very leaky, you could pass some of these systemic tests, but the tractor still won't run.

A compression tester is relatively cheap and easy to use. With that, you can test every cylinder individually, to see if it has compression.

Or, if you aren't so inclined, there are tricks that people have pulled over the years, like pouring a little oil into the cylinders and turning the engine over, in order to lubricate old, stuck valves and free them up.

Either way, if you have spark and gas... seems like either the timing is off, or the compression is off at one or more cylinders

This post was edited by lastcowboy32 on 07/05/2022 at 12:55 pm.
 

It's been 6 years since we rebuilt our old Ford 2N. Since then, it has been a reliable little machine.

Before that, I cleaned the carburetor...I replaced ignition components... yada, yada...

It still ran, but it ran like crap.

I also started with a running machine... that ran like crap.

But then I did a compression test. Compression was terrible on all of the cylinders.

When I took the engine apart, I found that the valves were probably original (1943) and sealed about as well as a screen door. The valves, their seats, their stems, and the bores that they worked in were caked with 73 years of soot and burnt oil...

When I took off the head, the tops of the pistons were also caked with burnt soot and oil... the rings were caked with the same.

And this was with an engine that ran like crap.

If I started with an engine that didn't run and had sat for a while... I would be even more suspicious that the engine has deeper issues than spark and carburetion.

Dr Frankenstein didn't just go to the graveyard, dig up a grave and put new clothes on a corpse and expect him to come back to life, ya know??? :-)
 
You need to make sure that the rotor in the distributor is pointing to #1 cylinder when on the compression stroke. Have a IH340 that the distributor drive gear stripped out so that in turn messed with the timing so it would not run. Took a bit of looking to figure out what had happened
 

Exactly! And this is the type of issue that would cause a running machine to stop running, be hard to figure out... so it gets parked.


And left as a head scratcher for someone trying to get it running later.
 
Update:
The Super C is running. The aggravating thing is, I cant tell you why. Left the battery charger on it, and would try it a couple times a day before or after chores, etc. yesterday, after playing with the carb adjustments a bit, it popped off. Has started every time since.

Needs new hoses on the radiator, a clutch adjustment, a throttle adjustment, and a good wash, but after 20+ years, Im glad to hear it.

Thanks for everyones help! Next project is a 606 with a 2000 loader. Wish me luck!
 

So, oddball guess as to why...

Maybe you accidentally biased the generator.

With these old tractors, if they still have the old generators on them, and... if the generator has been removed.... or inoperable for a long, long time... or if the battery has been removed...the generator needs to be biased initially to create the right polarity of voltage.

With my old Ford 2N... if I remove the battery or generator... when I put everything back together and go to re-start it, I have to take a jumper wire and momentarily connect the ungrounded terminal of the battery (which is the negative on the 2N's positive ground system) to the charge post on the generator.

If you don't do that, it's a crap shoot as to what polarity the generator will start up with.
 

alternatively... maybe it WAS the carb that needed adjustment.

Or... all of the cranking finally loosened up a valve that was sticking...
 
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