Super Major Live Drive Query

[KOPON]

Hi,

This relates to an engine swap some years ago when two tractors had their engines swapped, one of which was definitely a dual clutch & live drive. My query is regarding the possibility of a dual clutch engine being installed to a non-live drive transmission. Is this possible? Also, can a single clutch engine be installed to a live drive transmission? I would have assumed not but now the tractor with the dual clutch engine appears not to be operating as live drive in that the clutch travel seems to be restricted to only one compression.
Any advice appreciated.

 

[SkipperII]

Hi,

This relates to an engine swap some years ago when two tractors had their engines swapped, one of which was definitely a dual clutch & live drive. My query is regarding the possibility of a dual clutch engine being installed to a non-live drive transmission. Is this possible? Also, can a single clutch engine be installed to a live drive transmission? I would have assumed not but now the tractor with the dual clutch engine appears not to be operating as live drive in that the clutch travel seems to be restricted to only one compression.
Any advice appreciated.

I don't remember( if the flywheels are drilled and tapped for both set ups;(never changed one over) but, If you have the right flywheel, the engine will fit . Curious as to why not to fix the dual disc clutch??

 

[KOPON]

The engines in question were swapped across without any alterations. My recollection is that both engines were dual clutch and I'm now wondering if both transmissions were definitely live drive. I imagine they must be but I'll make a point of checking by running both in the next few days. My understanding of the dual clutch set up is that a non-live drive transmission could be coupled to a dual clutch engine but not vice versa. However I'm not sure if the non-live drive transmission would operate correctly with the presence of the extra clutch plate?

 

[Majorman]

The engines in question were swapped across without any alterations. My recollection is that both engines were dual clutch and I'm now wondering if both transmissions were definitely live drive. I imagine they must be but I'll make a point of checking by running both in the next few days. My understanding of the dual clutch set up is that a non-live drive transmission could be coupled to a dual clutch engine but not vice versa. However I'm not sure if the non-live drive transmission would operate correctly with the presence of the extra clutch plate?

The engines on both tractors are the same and either will fit. The differences are in the flywheel and clutch which can be exchanged between them. You cannot fit a Live Drive clutch to a standard gearbox or visa-versus. A Live Drive gearbox has two input shafts coming to the clutch and the standard just one.
Under the clutch pedal footplate there is a frame around the clutch pedal and a pin should be across it stopping the clutch from traveling completely down. This saves the linkage from use when not needed. The pin should be removed to allow the clutch to travel a little further and operating the PTO clutch. It should be replaced when the PTO is not required.
Another problem could be the PTO clutch has rusted to the drive plate through not being used.

 

[KOPON]

I understand how the live drive gearbox could not marry to a single clutch because of the two input shafts but is there anything to prevent a non-live gearbox from marrying to a dual clutch engine? Is the larger diameter (outer) input shaft driving the pto? If so, could the smaller diameter (inner) shaft pass through the larger clutch plate and operate the transmission as normal?

 

[Majorman]

I understand how the live drive gearbox could not marry to a single clutch because of the two input shafts but is there anything to prevent a non-live gearbox from marrying to a dual clutch engine? Is the larger diameter (outer) input shaft driving the pto? If so, could the smaller diameter (inner) shaft pass through the larger clutch plate and operate the transmission as normal?

There is no way that a live drive and a standard clutch can be interchanged.
There is no such thing as a "Live Drive" engine or a "Standard Engine" they are both the same. The only difference is the fly wheel and clutch that can be interchanged as a complete unit so why would you not swap them when the engine was changed? I have been working on these tractors for 60 plus years in a main dealer so do know a little bit about them.

 

[KOPON]

Thanks Majorman and I appreciate your experience and input. Of course I know there's no such thing as a live drive engine, it was just my clumsy way of differentiating between an engine equipped with a dual clutch and one that is fitted with a standard clutch. The reason the engines were swapped was because one of the engines had been completely refurbished including a new dual clutch (a "Live Drive Engine" ) but a rather noisy transmission whereas the second one had quite low oil pressure, some blow back but a much quieter transmission / differential. At the time, I didn't think or have an opportunity to verify the input shaft(s) setup on the second one but assumed it was a live drive transmission. I can be sure the engine on the second one was a dual clutch otherwise it would not have married to my original noisy live drive transmission. So the question is simply could the quieter transmission be a non-live drive albeit married to a dual clutch engine. Possible or impossible? I know the first clutch to disengage is the transmission so the tractor could theoretically still drive ok but I'm hoping there is some other criteria that would rule out having such a setup, such as the length of the main input (transmission) shaft being different. In any event, I hope to practically test the tractor in the next few days and that will confirm all. Meanwhile, it would ease my concerns if I could learn what aspect / detail prevents a non-live drive transmission from being operated via a dual clutch. Please forgive any incorrect terminology.

 

[Jim.ME]

Thanks Majorman and I appreciate your experience and input. Of course I know there's no such thing as a live drive engine, it was just my clumsy way of differentiating between an engine equipped with a dual clutch and one that is fitted with a standard clutch. The reason the engines were swapped was because one of the engines had been completely refurbished including a new dual clutch (a "Live Drive Engine" ) but a rather noisy transmission whereas the second one had quite low oil pressure, some blow back but a much quieter transmission / differential. At the time, I didn't think or have an opportunity to verify the input shaft(s) setup on the second one but assumed it was a live drive transmission. I can be sure the engine on the second one was a dual clutch otherwise it would not have married to my original noisy live drive transmission. So the question is simply could the quieter transmission be a non-live drive albeit married to a dual clutch engine. Possible or impossible? I know the first clutch to disengage is the transmission so the tractor could theoretically still drive ok but I'm hoping there is some other criteria that would rule out having such a setup, such as the length of the main input (transmission) shaft being different. In any event, I hope to practically test the tractor in the next few days and that will confirm all. Meanwhile, it would ease my concerns if I could learn what aspect / detail prevents a non-live drive transmission from being operated via a dual clutch. Please forgive any incorrect terminology.

The transmission input shaft for a single disc (non-live transmission) clutch has splines to match the one friction disc like an automobile. The single input shaft runs inside the tube the throwout bearing carrier rides on. The dual stage (live) clutch assembly is basically two clutches in one. It has two fiction discs with separate pressure plates. The input to the transmission is two separate input shafts, one for the traction clutch (transmission) and one for the PTO. The traction clutch input shaft runs inside the PTO input shaft which is inside the tube the throwout bearing carrier slides on. The tube for the throwout bearing is longer for the single stage clutch and would foul the two-stage pressure plate. the tube for a dual stage clutch is shorter and the bearing carrier could come off the tube if used with a single stage clutch.

The two clutches are not interchangeable due to the difference in the transmission input shaft arrangements. The flywheels for the two types of clutches are often different as the two stage clutches are generally deeper due to being two clutches stacked one on the other. The engine could be used with either clutch/transmission by changing the flywheel. The transmissions would not interchange (without rebuilding to change the input arrangements and internal gearing, if the cases are the same).

Bottom line is the discs and pressure plate arrangements of the two clutches and input shaft arrangements of the transmissions are different and physically don't allow swapping just one of them.

 

[KOPON]

The tube for the throwout bearing is longer for the single stage clutch and would foul the two-stage pressure plate

Thanks Jim.ME. This is precisely what I was wondering. My logic being that the diameter of this tube would be sufficiently small to allow it to pass through the larger PTO pressure plate without fouling since the PTO tube is much larger diameter? The potential for fouling I imagined would be at the splined PTO clutch plate and this is where the length and diameter of the tube would be crucial. This in turn led me to question whether the release bearing of the smaller single stage would then be capable of operating the larger dual clutch pressure plate both in terms of bearing diameter and fork position. Presumably the fork position would be further from the flywheel with the dual clutch?
Anyway, when all is said and done, it would seem from your perspective and that of Majorman that I shouldn't worry any further regarding the live PTO as the engine swap would not have been possible.
Thanks all and apologies for any waste of time.