Surge protecter question.

[SodBuster87]

I live in a older house with two prong (no ground) outlets. Will a surge protecter still work? I can buy those adapters that ground to the outlet cover screw. but do these actualy work. All my electronics are in one room so worse case scenario I could fish tape a copper ground wire to the outlet I will use. Also I realize some are better then others. I was looking at one for $100 at Best Buy. Rated for 1620 Joules. Is this enough?

Thanks
Sod Busters

 

[kcm.MN]

Not sure how you plan to ground to an outlet cover screw. I assume your junction boxes are metal? And ALL wiring is run through continuous metal conduit? And that the (probably) fuse panel is grounded to Earth? I think that might have been acceptable in the old days, but not by modern standards. However, multiple pieces of steel conduit and multiple steel boxes just can't compare with a proper ground wire.

In order to have "proper" ground, and in order for the surge protector warranty to be accepted, ......I doubt they would accept warranty from your wiring at all.

Back in 2000, we had a direct lightning strike in a brand new home. Everything was grounded and all up to then-current specs. And yet, the surge protector company still refused to honor the warranty for the computer and other attached items.

If you don't care about warranty and simply want to protect your PC from power surges, then I'd recommend a different approach for your home - however, it will require a bit more investment and be a little more effort. BUT....it will provide MUCH BETTER protection for your electronics!

1. Figure out what all you wish to have protected, then go and add together the amp draw of all these items.
2. buy a power inverter that is rated about 50% higher than the amperage draw.
3. Connect the inverter to a battery. If you wish to have some amount of run time to allow for properly shutting down your PC in the event of outage, you'll need at least one car battery. Length of time needed depends on how much draw (ALL items powered by inverter) and how long it takes to power down.
4. If you don't care about "backup power" for powering down, then you can use a much smaller battery - like one for a riding mower.
5. You will also need a decent battery charger, but not an overly expensive one. The charger will keep your battery fully charged, and the battery will provide beautifully clean power to your electronics. If you ever get a direct lightning strike, the surge "might" still affect the electronics, but much less chance than if using a surge protector. The battery/inverter system also protects against ALL minor power fluctuations!!

 

[MarkB_MI]

Surge protectors have devices that protect against both differential (hot to cold) and common mode (both legs to ground) voltage spikes. Obviously, if a surge protector isn't grounded, it has no way to limit common mode voltage. Excessive differential voltage is more dangerous to equipment than common mode voltage, but a typical surge will have both differential and common mode components. So an ungrounded protector is better than none at all, but not nearly as effective as one that's grounded.

Rather than trust manufacturers' ratings, I would check independent reviews where they actually test the devices. Here is one such review. <a href="https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-surge-protector/">https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-surge-protector/</a>

 

[L.Fure]

My house is the same as yours, no grounded circuits. Here's what I did to provide a grounded outlet for my computer. The outlet is mounted on an outside wall, so I drilled a small hole through the wall directly behind the outlet box. I used a long drill bit that electricians use for this purpose. Then I pulled a 12ga. wire through the hole. Outside of that wall I drove a 8' long ground rod into the ground. Before I did this I dug a shallow hole, so I could drive the rod below ground level after I clamped the new ground wire to it.

 

[Geo-TH,In]

I has the power company install a large surge protector behind my electric meter.

 

[John T]

Most spikes that may damage sensitive electronic equipment are between the Ungrounded Conductor and Grounded Conductor so a proper surge protection device can still help regarding that even in your old two wire system, it's still better then nothing.

As far as safety equipment grounding, as you don't have a true separate equipment grounding conductor I would NOT make any attempts to jury rig a "bootstrap" ground using the Neutral. Even in two wire systems proper polarizing receptacles and plugs are best.

FYI The Grounded Conductor (Neutral) is for conducting normal return current, while a true separate Equipment Grounding Conductor (third wire) is to provide a dedicated low resistance return current path FOR FAULT CURRENT ONLY.

John T

 

[Gambles]

Let me tell you a story that we had with a certain surge protector.
It must have been about 8 years ago, but our house got hit by lightning. At the time, one of my kids was on the computer, a computer that was on a surge protector supplied by our internet company and had a "$50,000" warranty on anything that was plugged into it. The monitor, computer and printer were fried, items that were plugged into the surge protector. So was just about everything else that was plugged into an outlet in the house, including lamps, TVs, freezer and refrigerator. These items were NOT on a surge protector, I'm just giving reference that we had a genuine surge in our house.
The first thing we do is contact the surge protector manufacturer to file a claim. Tell tell us to send it in to be tested. Guess what? The testing came back as a negative and that the surge protector was working fine. They tell us that there must have been "static" in the house and that it was in the air, not the wiring. We got squat from them.
Are surge protectors a good piece of equipment? Sure. Just don't bet that they are a sure-fire thing.

 

[RJKeith]

I agree that it will be better than nothing, but the surge arrester really wants to shunt any spikes or surges to ground. Also surge protection is a layered approach if it is done right. You would have a surge arrester at your panelboard and a second one at the equipment. The surge arrestor at the panelboard would take care of most of a surge and the one at the equipment would handle what is left.

 

[Janicholson]

Exactly. Millions of volts go great damage. Surge protection at my house includes two items: attention to weather, and access to the plugs in the
wall. I do not consider the power strip (with surge protection internal to it) to be anything but an extension cord. Jim

 

[kcm.MN]

(quoted from post at 06:14:30 08/02/18) Exactly. Millions of volts go great damage. Surge protection at my house includes two items: attention to weather, and access to the plugs in the
wall. I do not consider the power strip (with surge protection internal to it) to be anything but an extension cord. Jim

Exactly! We do the same thing. Any time weather is bad, everything gets unplugged.

I like the inverter idea, however, as we have lots of brownouts at various times of year (usually due to beavers) and the inverter system means the PC doesn't even know.

 

[Leroy]

Only surge protector I used was on the phone line when computor was hooked to phone line. It was constantly blowing that protector, if there was lightening 10 mile away it would blow that protector. Since I am no longer on dialup with computor I have no protectors anymore.

 

[DoubleO7]

(quoted from post at 10:14:30 08/02/18) Exactly. Millions of volts go great damage. Surge protection at my house includes two items: attention to weather, and access to the plugs in the
wall. I do not consider the power strip (with surge protection internal to it) to be anything but an extension cord. Jim

YEP

And battery back up (UPC) are good for about a month or two.
Then when the power does actually go out you discover the battery went dead some time before.

 

[M-MAN]

I always thought surge protectors were for
power spikes and I do use them. Nothing is
going to stop a lightning strike.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 10:52:40 08/02/18) I always thought surge protectors were for
power spikes and I do use them. Nothing is
going to stop a lightning strike.

xactly! For a direct hit, that surge protector is a 'toy'.....like trying to lift your tractor with a piece of thread. It hits roof, jumps to power wiring, telephone wiring, TV cables, ethernet wires, anything metallic that any of those wires/cables cross or come near, even piping.

 

[sotxbill]

(quoted from post at 11:00:34 08/02/18)

(quoted from post at 10:52:40 08/02/18) I always thought surge protectors were for
power spikes and I do use them. Nothing is
going to stop a lightning strike.

xactly! For a direct hit, that surge protector is a 'toy'.....like trying to lift your tractor with a piece of thread. It hits roof, jumps to power wiring, telephone wiring, TV cables, ethernet wires, anything metallic that any of those wires/cables cross or come near, even piping.

metal oxide varistors will normal short to ground.. but on a direct hit, even the ground will rise, and if the ground rises to 50,000 volts, the varistors will do NO good... Therefore the protector can test perfectly good but everything plugged into it was destroyed anyway do to internal pathway arcing through delay caused by various resistors and inductors... Otherwords your electronic ate themselves alive.

 

[Hanky]

Personally after being a sparky for almost 30 years I would cut that wire off that ground rod, ?driven electrodes? are almost worthless, and if you
ever have an issue (lightning strike) you will have a major difference of potential between that and your existing grounding electrode system,
multiple unbonded grounded electrodes are trouble waiting to happen.

 

[westom]

(quoted from post at 14:06:03 08/02/18) I agree that it will be better than nothing, but the surge arrester really wants to shunt any spikes or surges to ground.

You may want to change all that after learning some facts.

It is not any ground. Which ground? Virtual ground, motherboard ground, safety ground, chassis ground, floating ground, ground beneath a utility transformer, analog ground, or a water pipe? None of those are relevant. A protector is only as effective as the quality of and low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth ground.

Worse, a protector adjacent to appliances can even make surge damage easier. It can earth a surge destructively through adjacent appliances. An IEEE brochure even demonstrated this with numbers. A protector inside one room earthed a surge 8000 volts destructively via a TV in the next room.

Effective protection only does what Franklin demonstrated over 250 years ago. For example, lightning finds earth ground destructively via a church steeple. Franklin's lightning rod connected lightning to earth on a harmless path that remained outside the structure. Then no damage.

Lightning finds earth ground destructively via household appliances. An informed homeowner's 'whole house' protector connects lighting to earth on a harmless path that remains outside the structure and away from appliances. Then no damage.

That is how it was done over 100 years ago. And why a direct lightning strike in every town causes no damage.

No lightning rod or 'whole house' protector does protection. Not one. Both are only as effective as its connection to and quality of earth ground. How to make that rod or protector better? Upgrade the earthing.

But advertising cannot generate obscene profits by teaching reality. So most foolishly believe some magic plug-in box does surge protection. Anyone can learn of the science. Anyone can read the near zero joule specification numbers for a protector. Most ignore all to recommend a scam.

Best solution (to protect a structure or appliances) will always answer this question. Always. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? A protector (or lightning rod) is only as effective as its earth ground.

 

[westom]

(quoted from post at 15:28:25 08/02/18) Only surge protector I used was on the phone line when computor was hooked to phone line. It was constantly blowing that protector, if there was lightening 10 mile away it would blow that protector.

Apparently what was happening was never learned. All phone lines have and have long been required to have best protection - installed for free.

Never forget what was taught in elementary school science. If that current does not have both an incoming and an outgoing path, then that electric current does not exist. If incoming on a phone line, then what was the outgoing path? None exists.

A surge is typically incoming on AC mains - the most exposed wires and the only utility not required to have effective protection. Incoming to all appliance on AC mains. Now hunting for earth ground. Best outgoing path is that phone line. It need not be outgoing on anything else. Best outgoing path is that phone line.

Incoming on AC mains. Outgoing (at the exact same time) destructively via that phone line and near zero joule protector. Damage is often on an outgoing path. But many, who forget what was taught in elementary school science, use wild speculation to assume that was the incoming path. And that no outgoing path existed.

Protection even from direct lightning strikes was, is, and will always be about connecting a surge to earth BEFORE it can enter a building. Informed consumers always connect a 'whole house' protector on a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) path to single point earth ground.

 

[souNdguy]

Your twisted pair telephone min is a current loop... Your elementary science teacher sure wasn't an engineer...

 

[westom]

(quoted from post at 01:14:36 08/03/18) Your twisted pair telephone min is a current loop...

Your telephone line is also an ideal outgoing (and destructive) connection from an appliance to earth ground. That required connection to earth (existed even 100 years ago) is installed for free by your telco as required by industry standards and even the National Electrical Code. Apparently you do not even know what it is and that it exists. Telephone lines are rarely the incoming surge path. Telephone lines are a classic outgoing and destructive surge path.

Learn how electricity works to understand why a surge is not incoming on phone lines. Learn about a protector that you never knew, that always existed, that was installed for free at all subscriber interfaces, and that explains your damage on the outgoing surge path.

Current loop is irrelevant. And makes clear you ignored what was posted.