touchless front end alignment check

[Dan in North Houston]

OK, not strictly tractor related, but tractor front ends need alignment too.
Daughter took her Toyota in for service, they have a new Hunter alignment checking system. They drive the car over a device that measures alignment with lasers and immediately gives a report whether your car needs alignment. She watched the two cars in front of her get tested and overheard the service advisor tell them they needed an alignment job. They ran her car over it and sure enough, she needed an alignment too. She's been my helper in the garage ever since she could walk. She does her own routine maintenance, oil changes, tire rotation, and changes her own brake pads, so she can hold her own with most service managers. She declined the alignment service, figuring that 1) car has about 30k miles and drives normal, no pulling to either side, no vibration from front end, etc.; 2) tires are regularly rotated and show no unusual wear patterns; 3) 99.9% is normal highway driving, has not hit any curbs or debris that would cause damage, and 4) the whole thing looked like a classic up-sell ploy to her.
So I'm curious what thoughts or comments you might offer on this. Does her car need an alignment job? Maybe it's not perfect, but if there are no obvious problems, it seems like money wasted to me. Am I missing something here?

 

[Charles in Aus.]

Knowledge is power Dan , congratulations on bringing up a woman that isn't a victim .

 

[kcm.MN]

X2

 

[RCP]

It would be interesting to get the results from the laser check and go to an alignment shop and see how they compare. I do applaud your daughter for telling them no.

 

[Sprint 6]

I know from my time doing alignments that modern cars are so sturdy and the parts so precise, they really don't need an alignment until parts are replaced from wear or damage. And parts replacement for wear isn't that common. I have a customer with a Honda Odyssey with 417K miles still on its original ball joints and tie rods. Trying ro sell alignments at 30K is borderline criminal. But, can't blame a dealer for trying, they have almost zero customer pay work anymore.

 

[woodbutcher]

My wife's 2019 Highlander has almost that mileage, and when it was time for an oil change, I took it to the dealer who had done the oil change free at 5K intervals. When I got there, the service manager said this visit was going to cost $350 and included a four wheel alignment. I told him I didn't need that- all I wanted was the free oil change. He said it wasn't free anymore, so I asked him how much it costs. We finally agreed on $250 for whatever they had on their list and the oil change. So, when I got the bill, the alignment was listed for most of the total price. The oil change was shown as no charge. I feel like I was taken advantage of, and I won't be going back to that shop for anything.

Butch

 

[M-MAN]

Your daughter did good! The dealership is using technology to scam people. At least now she knows they aren't trustworthy and to always tread carefully.

Those machines are great but they are expensive so to pay for it they need to sell a lot of alignments. They can show you the paper to prove its off. Problem is it was never meant to be within a thousandth of a degree. None of the new cars on the lot will pass using the same criteria. Let them align it and drive around the block and across a pothole and it will fail again.

 

[560Dennis]

Not knowing , any of the numbers , I d say with fuel cost ,tires , front steering wear , Id consider it .

 

[RobCons]

Without the car showing unusual wear I agree with your daughter. Most likely the laser machines specs are tighter than the cars. My 01 Silverado has 385k on it with original front end and factory alignment.

 

[Gambles]

This was before my time, but....any of you seasoned viewers remember when there was a vacuum tube checker sitting in about every hardware, electronic store and even your local drug store? Those things said just about every tube you put it in needed to be changed, even if your TV or radio worked fine.
This was 30+ years ago, but I was in the Dallas, TX area getting some tires put on by a major tire chain on a Friday afternoon. This chain also did mechanic work on the side. I was in the waiting room with about 6-8 other customers and one of the techs came in and was talking to a lady sitting next to me. By the conversation, she obviously had a mechanical fuel pump replaced on her vehicle (remember, this was 30+ years ago) and the tech said her car was now running fine, but they needed to keep her vehicle. Why? His explanation was that the fuel pump COULD have spewed parts into the carburetor and COULD cause problems down the road. They didn't have a carb kit on hand and nobody else had one either. She explained that she absolutely needed her car that weekend and it was the only car she had. The tech said that he couldn't release her car because it COULD cause problems and they didn't want that to happen. So the lady needed her car, and even though the new fuel pump worked fine, they wouldn't give it to her because they had to put in a carb kit.
My name was called and as I went to pay for my tires, I told her that she was getting shafted and that she needed to get her car out of there NOW.
Getting back on subject, I'm sure that laser-guided alignment checker will pay for itself in no time. Proof of that is most mechanic shops tell single ladies that their car needs a whole bunch of unneeded junk and the shop will give a computer printout to them showing them that their car is unsafe to drive.

 

[SDE]

My daughter complains that the dealership always tells her that she needs her cabin air filter changed. We changed it and they still tell her it needs changing.

 

[caterpillar guy]

Between those stunts and the not being able to get work needed done when I want/need it is why I do most all of my own work on things. That was especially true on the semi. I would come off the road for a few days or weekend and need an oil change or tire checked or anything else. Would be a week to get in and another few days to get done after in there.

 

[Geo-TH,In]

Hunter Engineering Launches Quick Check Drive a Touchless Alignment Inspection System.--
link to hunter

 

[Mule Meat]

Curious question.

Did she ask for or receive a printout of the results?

Just because your meat is frozen in the freezer today. Does not mean that you won't be shopping for a new one tomorrow.

 

[gmccool]

You said the device gives a report. LOOK AT THE REPORT. That will tell you if it needs aligned.

 

[chuckthin]

i got a recall notice and sure enough while we got you here you need a front end alignment. said no. the one thing i hate about toyota is they got rid of spin off oil filter making it harder for average person
to change oil so they can get more people in to dealer to up sell more stuff.

 

[Old560]

I had the opposite problem. My son and I replaced the ball joints and tie rod ends on his Ranger. Took it in for an alignment and left it with them overnight. Went to pick it up the next day they said it was done and it didnt need an alignment. I said show me the print out, they said they didnt have a print out. I said put it back on the rack and give me a print out. They did and then they came back into the waiting room and said your truck really needs an alignment. When I dropped the truck off I told them everything that we had done to the truck and that the alignment would be really out of spec. As far as the machine your daughter drove over I wouldnt trust it at all.

 

[Steve@Advance]

One time, a long time ago, I was in a Discount Tire store, there was an older lady at the counter beside me.

I overheard the salesman tell her she really needed to buy this set of new aluminum wheels for her mini van. The ones that are on it are cheap steel wheels and are a real hazard because they break and the tire blows out and...

I could see she was quite taken back by this information and was waffling weather to get them. I finally got her attention and shook my head no and mouthed ''That's BS!''. Last I saw she was telling him no, just put the tires on.

 

[ThadS]

It all depends on the dealership. The dealerships here have the same setup and uses it as an upsell mechanism. Many of the subdivisions here have the low curb and the builders just pour the driveway to the curb. Front ends take a beating so I am sure many are out of spec. The Ford dealership I frequent at least uses discretion and if it is only slightly out spec recommends tracking it next time to see how it changes. Others just look at the print out and say red is bad it needs service.

Good for her for not blindly accepting it. I assume they shared the report with here.

 

[dr sportster]

if it ain't broke...

 

[1948CaseVAI]

Those machines are pretty common around Wichita KS. I think they count on somewhere over 50% of folks to refuse the alignment but they make good money on the others.

 

[guido]

Hey Dan

You ARE not missing anything.
You will miss money out of your pocket if you agree to the NOT needed work.

What work? 30k miles, and no visible tire wear?

Guido.

 

[Mule Meat]

(quoted from post at 09:45:57 04/19/22) Hey Dan

You ARE not missing anything.
You will miss money out of your pocket if you agree to the NOT needed work.

What work? 30k miles, and no visible tire wear?

Guido.

See anything wrong with this tire Guido?

 

[Janicholson]

I just put 4 new tires on my Subaru Firestone tires at St. Cloud Firestone on Division Street. A free alignment check provided (documented proof paper copy) and the old tires were showing minor but detectable toe in wear issues. The alignment was all 4 wheels and the printout provided the before and after results. I watched the service technician actually work on all 4 corners doing the adjust. the left rear suspension adjusted within specifications, but was at one end of the adjustment to get there. I was informed that a different control arm might be needed to put it in spec if it got out again (123,000 miles on the car) The tire dealer has had a solid reputation with me, and treats my wife and other women in the same way they treat the men customers. I am happy. Jim

 

[Mike M]

Even if the machine was correct and it did need an alignment I doubt anyone there could do it correctly !
If the tires are wearing good leave it alone.
My car wears the tires on the outer edges. Had a few alignments done and it is still the same ! The rear is the worst and they do not make it adjustable. They all say it is within specs. The specs have a large range.

 

[guido]

Looks like side wall damage. Hard to tell
by the picture of the thread, possibly ran
slightly overinflated?

Guido.

 

[Mule Meat]

(quoted from post at 16:07:26 04/19/22) Looks like side wall damage. Hard to tell
by the picture of the thread, possibly ran
slightly overinflated?

Guido.

Correct.
They were ran at 32 psi as recommended on the door post. They are Goodyears as you can see. My knowing that Goodyear makes cheap tires with sidewalls so thin you can almost see the air in them. The guy ignored my suggesting that he run them at 36-40 psi. Came into the shop today for his first 6000 mile free rotation and found that the guy at the tire shop knew a little about tires. He did not like it when I told him that if he listened to what I told him every two weeks when he came in for a pressure check. He would not be buying 4 new tires.

Point is.
Just because you do not see or feel a problem with a car, be it tires or an alignment. Sometimes the tech knows a little more than cars owner. So you go ahead and tell people that,
"You will miss money out of your pocket if you agree to the NOT needed work."

That extra 4 to 8 psi of free air, the guy said he didn't need. Ended up costing him $873.

 

[Tracy Brown]

I would ask for the printout. Then ask to drive thru again and compare readings. I would be surprised if the readings were the same.

 

[bjb in TX from Ne]

Your in North Houston, which means you are probably going to Sterling McCall...they are crooks, and before long they will own all the dealerships for all the brands. My wife's Corolla will probably be our last Toyota just because I dislike Sterling McCall so much. When I complained directly to Toyota, the online form stopped me and provided a customer complaint number to call Toyota directly instead.

Watch your bill too (if you can even decipher it) they like to sneak in misc charges on the subtotal lines without any explanation of what the misc charge is...

I took my car into an independent down here in South Houston b/c it was pulling slightly (due to a dragging break), and they aligned it and returned it more out of alignment than when i dropped it off and then they wouldn't fix it unless i paid $2k for them to replace the front struts. After finally getting a hold of a manager and going to a different location, they finally realigned it properly, but that is the last time I let them work on a vehicle.

 

[Hobo,NC]

Looks to me from the black powder it was ran flat are extremely low on air... I have my doubt running it at 32 psi did that damage.

 

[circus]

I haven't hired an alignment for thirty years thanks to this cheap [b:9d423a59e7]tool[/b:9d423a59e7] and driving up on to a couple 2x6"s for enough room under the car

 

[Mule Meat]

(quoted from post at 18:01:14 04/19/22)
Looks to me from the black powder it was ran flat are extremely low on air... I have my doubt running it at 32 psi did that damage.

It did and does around here. Our roads are very curvy and rough and they eat tires like a kid after candy. Take a pick up for example. We get tires rated for Standard and Extra Load. If you put standard tires on a pickup and use it much. You are wasting your money.

 

[Determined]

(quoted from post at 10:27:51 04/20/22)

(quoted from post at 18:01:14 04/19/22)
Looks to me from the black powder it was ran flat are extremely low on air... I have my doubt running it at 32 psi did that damage.

It did and does around here. Our roads are very curvy and rough and they eat tires like a kid after candy. Take a pick up for example. We get tires rated for Standard and Extra Load. If you put standard tires on a pickup and use it much. You are wasting your money.

Mule Meat I am having a hard time understanding your post so I have a few questions regarding the tire full of powder.
In your post it says;

Came into the shop today for his first 6000 mile free rotation.
And
He did not like it when I told him that if he listened to what I told him every two weeks when he came in for a pressure check.

Free rotation often comes with the purchase of a set of tires so I am assuming your shop sold the customer the tires.

If these tires were only in service for 6000 miles and as you verified the pressure was checked every 2 weeks and set at the manufacturers recommended pressure why were they not then replaced under warranty?

 

[jimg.allentown]

Working in dealerships for some 30 years, I did my fair share of alignments as well as valve jobs, transmission overhauls, and whatever else came in the door.

From my experience, I can tell you that I do not trust any 'no touch' gimmick that is designed to sell alignments. So, first I will tell about modern cars. Most, if not all use some form of McPherson struts. Alignment is built into the body of the car. There is just not any adjustment for caster or camber on most of them. Granted, there are a few that provide a camber adjustment at the bottom of the strut (Chrysler products), but most do not. If caster or camber is out of specification, it means there are bent parts or body damage.

Another thing: front end alignments are mostly a thing of the past. Most modern cars have adjustments on the rear wheels. Most alignments amount to a four wheel toe-in adjustment and are aligned to track true. Just aligning the front end is generally a waste of time and money unless you are driving a truck or SUV with a solid rear axle. One other thing - if you hit a pothole hard enough to put your car out of alignment, then you better go to a body shop and fix the damage first because you bent something that an alignment won't fix.

There is my 2 cents' worth.

 

[jimg.allentown]

If cars were that delicate, you couldn't drive them on the road. Over the course of time, things do wear, but a pothole that disturbs alignment has done body damage and now requires replacement of the bent part(s).