Tractor maintenance day

[Shetland Sheepdog]

First job was to replace one of the block heater elements on my 5610. (the old one was leaking). Man! I didn't think we were ever going to get the screw backed off far enough to get the darn thing out of the block, but we finally did! The new one went in "slick as a Smelt". Replaced the coolant with new stuff, and added a pint of "cavitation inhibitor". The new "anti-freeze" was blue in color instead of green, so I read the jug, and it appears that it already has the additives to prevent the corrosion and pitting issues! So, the tractor is now double protected!

Second job was to find out why the starter "throws out" on Brother's 5000. We pulled the starter, (with loader on tractor, and without removing fuel filter). We dis-assembled the solenoid and cleaned it, then re-assembled. All appeared normal and correct. Installed starter on tractor and tried it. It still throws out after about 1 revolution. That's fine when tractor is warm, but not when it's cold. We took a look at the ring gear while the starter was out, and it appears that the starter drive is not pushing out far enough to fully engage the ring gear teeth. We are suspecting a weak solenoid, but as I type, I'm wondering if the problem could be the feed that energizes the solenoid? (tractor still has original key switch and wiring). Any thoughts in this from the experts appreciated.

Just as a note here: we used 3/8" drive socket, extension & ratchet to get the back bolt on the starter!

TIA, Dave

 

[MMMarvis]

On the 5000, is it a Lucas starter?
How did the drive feel, there are dogs inside that let it slip one way and lock the other It should feel FIRM and smooth.
Is there wear on the shift fork?
Some starters have a adjustment on the shift fork throw. ( bench check adjustment)

If you jump it at the starter on the tractor and it does the same it shouldn't be the switch

 

[Shetland Sheepdog]

Mav,
I'm not sure on the mfg (Lucas or other), it was new 3 or 4 years ago, I think it is a re-man from CNH dealer, but not sure! It seems to engage part way, but then dis-engage, which is leading me to think weak magnet! I question excessive wear on fork and linkage,as the starter isn't that old, and hasn't had excessive use! We did measurements from bell housing face to far side of ring gear, and from mounting surface of starter to far side of starter drive gear when drive is all the way out. It would have full contact with ring gear if it went full travel, but appears to not go full out..

 

[oldtanker]

When it disengages is the motor still running? If so it's the drive not the solenoid. If the motor is stopping then it's electrical. Could be a bad connection. Went throught that with my TLB a couple of weeks ago. Starter was turning kinda slow. New fully charge battery, new battery cables, everything clean tight and bright. Pulled the starter (PIA job) set it on the bench and a jumper connection on the solenoid wasn't tight. I could have fixed it with the starter mounted!

Rick

 

[RodinNS]

Just to be clear on this... when it disengages... Does the starter motor stop turning or do you hear it spinning like blazes and the engine stoped turning?
If the motor has stopped completly then I would start by checking the battery connections and make sure there's a good solid 12V there on the main terminals. I'd also check the control terminal and make sure it's getting a steady 12V or therabouts when the key is turned to crank. That could be the problem....
If you know for certain that you have steady voltage on both of those terminals then I would probable condemn the switch. But usually a bad switch presents itself as an open whenre it won't pull in or a short where it welds closed and keep on crankin'.
There is an adjustment on the actuator lever for the flywheel penetration of the drive... but I don't think that would be the problem here. If the switch is pulling it that would likely just create some bad noises if it wasn't set correctly...
Beyond that... if you still have the old, genuine Lucas M50 that you removed... retreive it, clean the brushes and drive bushings, relube and reinstall... It'll probably outlast the Indian reproduction... You may also be able to fit the Lucas switch to the Indian starter or a Magnet Marelli if that's what you have. Mabey....

Those old Lucas' had two problems. They get dirty, particularly around the brushes and ground stud.... and need a good cleaning every few years.... and they occassionally throw a drive. Other than that, I think they're one of the better starters for that application.
They're certainly economical to repair if you've got a couple hours.

I cleaned one last week. Doing another this afternoon... and when it goes on the tractor I'll clean the one I take off that tractor for a spare...

Rod

 

[Shetland Sheepdog]

Rod, The starter motor keeps spinning, the drive disengages. Also appears from looking at the gears (starter drive and ring gear) that the drive does not go full travel when activated, but by measurements, it has enough travel so it should fully engage.
Unfortunately the original starter went for core, so that approach is out!
TIA, Dave

 

[RodinNS]

The drive is bad on this one. If the switch was bad the whole works would stop.
Nice of them to take your old one... I rather doubt it got rebuilt anyhow, but who knows.
If you do get an OEM Lucas, hang onto it.

Now for the bad news... the drive is probably worth nearly as much as the new starter. Price it out and see. Sadly, Wilson no longer wants to supply parts for these things; only complete assemblies...


Rod

 

[Shetland Sheepdog]

I think you're right Rod! My memory is a little fuzzy, but I think that's exactly why Brother ended up with this starter in the first place! IIRC, drive/solenoid went bad on the original Lucas, and an entire new starter was the cheapest answer! Again IIRC, he only paid $150.00 +/- for the complete starter, and the solenoid for the Lucas was going to cost approximately the same!
As always, I appreciate your expertise and willingness to share it --- even if you don't like Titans! LOL
Dave

 

[RodinNS]

Dave... when you get enough calcium bath's from those rubber bastards... you'll hate them too.
Ya just didn't get the inside sidewall BOOM as it passed 12 oclock yet... I've experienced the Armstrong/Titan boom.... I think 5 times now. There will never be another.

The starter.... well... you send me yours since it's no good and I'll take the switch and make mine work. Limey devil has a bad switch that I've now got to try and fix.

Seriously tho... if yours is a genuine Lucas M50G I'd probably buy it a new drive. If it's a Marelli (or worse) knockoff... probably just buy another knockoff. Drive craps today. Windings tomorrow...

One thing about Lucas starters... they are tough... unlike their regulators.

Rod

 

[MMMarvis]

See if these guys can save you a buck!

http://www.dbelectrical.com/c-3019-ford-new-holland.aspx

 

[Shetland Sheepdog]

MM, Thanks for the link! I'm just a little suspect about what I would get for a starter from them when they list one model for 2000 thru 5000! I was thinking that there were 2 sizes for that range of tractors, 4" and 4.5", or was that 4" for gas & 4.5" for diesel? (give me a break, that was 40 years ago) LOL
Dave

 

[MMMarvis]

Match the numbers. Most is the same thing others are selling. Some genuine Bosch and Lucas, Most are later date listings.

And they have some parts.

My 3000 diesel has a 4 1/2 Lucas but its a '65, But the 5" was on many models for many years in the 70's and up.

I haven't used them, i found the listing in reading the old crawler Forum.

Back in my day the only good Lucas generator regulator was a Genuine Lucas. All the aftermarket stuff was junk.
I haven't a clue these days and have a need.

 

[RodinNS]

4" is the bendix type for the gas engines... Then you have the 4.5" and 5" Lucas which will be the M45 and M50 respectively, with a 10 tooth drive. Both will fit... The 4.5" was used more on the 3 cylinders I think... but for what it's worth, go with the 5". These things are cranky enough to start without going to a smaller starter.

Rod

 

[Shetland Sheepdog]

Thanks for the clarification Rod, I thought that there were 2 sizes for the diesels, but had forgotten that they were 4.5" & 5"! I'm guessing that the 5" starters are the ones that give us a fit getting to that back bolt! LOL

As to the link that MM gave, I'd bet the farm that those are the 4.5"!

Dave

 

[RodinNS]

I don't know that I've ever seen a 4.5" M45 starter, at least not on a Ford. Harvester was bad about using them on the Doncaster tractors... and you always find those things won't start well or tear up a lot of starters. I really don't know if the difference was diameter or length between the 45 and 50... but I do suspect that in Ford's case, the smaller one was more likely use in more temperate environments.... ie... NOT here.

In looking at that link.. the 16608 SLU0002 would appear to be the correct starter. What I'd probably do if I was interested in it... call them and have a body lay a hand on the starter and see if it's an M45 or M50 and find out what it's power output is. An M50 will make 2.8 KW rated output...
I really don't find the back bolts bad to get out provided you've got the right stuff... I use UltraPro (NAPA) stuff... 9/16"-3/8" drive socket, 2.5" wobble extension, 6" wobble extension and I usually use a flex head, long handled ratchet. Put the socket and extensions together such that the socket is on the 2-1/2, then the 6" and put that on the bolt without the ratchet... then add the ratchet when you know the socket is seated. Works slick as snot. The wobbles are needed, first to get the socket on straight... then the second one is needed to get around the starter bump.
Can be done with a small u-joint as well but not nearly as easily. I hauled that starter off in 5 min last week one day. Spent more time warming my hands than I did wrenching.

Rod