Recently saw this fluid at Lowe's. I know there's been discussion about different trans/hyd fluids but don't recall anything about Mag 1. Looked it up on Google and the specs list it as suitable for Ford/NH ESN-M2C143A-D and others. It is a premium universal tractor trans/hyd fluid, but still not sure it is okay for my Ford 8N.
TheOldHokie
Well-known Member
- Location
- Myersville, MD 21773
Any premium UTF is more than "okay". Just stay away from the "yellow bucket" 303 stuff. LUBRIZOL did an in-house comparison of several box store UTFs and MAG1 actually got high marks.
TOH
Jim.ME
Well-known Member
- Location
- Central Maine
Mag-1 is the brand, they make/bottle a number of oil products. The brand is owned by Warren Distibutors. I am guessing you are looking at MAG 1 Premium Universal Tractor Trans-Hydraulic Fluid. I'm not going to get into whether or not it is good for your use, there will be plenty of opinions coming on that.
The Product Data Sheet.
https://mag1.com/products/61/pds/
showcrop
Well-known Member
It depends on where you are and how you will use it. The more modern more expensive oils have many additives to enable them to work with the wet clutch packs and brakes on modern tractors. These additives don't enable the oil to do anything better for an old dry clutch and brake tractor like your 8N, than plain gear oil will do. What the these tractor hydraulic will do however, is absorb a lot more moisture than older cheaper hydraulic oil or gear oil. The moisture gets in when humidity is high, and condenses on the interior surfaces of the transmission and hydraulic housing, and the oil absorbs it, and then the oil is described by the worried owner posting here as looking like a coffee milkshake. Posts about this come up here frequently. If you use your 8N long enough and hard enough frequently enough to get the oil hot enough for long enough the moisture will be driven off. Otherwise you will probably need to change it at least every year. If you use conventional oil such as what the tractor was shipped with originally you need to simply loosen the drain plugs and drain the water off the bottom once a year. In this case spending more is probably not good for your tractor.
TheOldHokie
Well-known Member
- Location
- Myersville, MD 21773
You really need to revisit that a$$ backwards theory of yours and get a more accurate understanding of how the additive chemistry in UTF actually handles water intrusion. Its one of the big advantages of UTF [b:bc1eb29bbf]in any tractor[/b:bc1eb29bbf]. Here is a snippet from Kubotas 1997 development report to the SAE. Their primary market is Asian countries where humidity and water intrusion is a big problem.
[b:bc1eb29bbf]1997-09-08
Development of High Performance Transmission/Hydraulic Fluid (KUBOTA Super-UDT)
Establishing the Specification and New Test Method 972788[/b:bc1eb29bbf]
[i:bc1eb29bbf][b:bc1eb29bbf][u:bc1eb29bbf][color=red:bc1eb29bbf]The problem is[/color:bc1eb29bbf][/u:bc1eb29bbf] [/b:bc1eb29bbf]that in high humid regions moisture entering through the air breather is [color=red:bc1eb29bbf][b:bc1eb29bbf][u:bc1eb29bbf]condensed when the tractor is not used for a long period of time. [/u:bc1eb29bbf][/b:bc1eb29bbf][/color:bc1eb29bbf] Under these conditions the lubricating oil is required to prevent the perfomance of the tractor from deteriorating[/i:bc1eb29bbf]
So how does an oil prevent that degradation?
You [b:bc1eb29bbf]DO NOT[/b:bc1eb29bbf] want that free water laying around in the sump. It causes corrosion and when you finally do start the tractor it gets whipped into a coffee milkshake emulsion that you cannot get rid of and you have to change the oil.
What you [b:bc1eb29bbf][u:bc1eb29bbf]DO[/u:bc1eb29bbf][/b:bc1eb29bbf] want is for the oil to absorb as much of it as posible and keep it in solution where it does not corrode parts or form an emulsion and ruin the oil.
To that end modern tractor transmission oils are all formulated, tested, and evaluated on the basis of their ability to absorb free water. Hint - more is better and a premium formulation can suck up 1% by volume.
TOH
This post was edited by TheOldHokie on 11/15/2022 at 11:02 am.
showcrop
Well-known Member
TOH, Thank you for reinforcing my point!! Especially the part in underlined red and the "Hint:" As you know I post about the situation where someone posts that they have just found that their UTF oil has turned into a coffee milkshake. As you know this is not an unusual post here at YT. The UTF, thanks to its additives, will absorb a lot of moisture, in some cases up to .6% without it even showing. Above that level it starts to turn milky. When it is milky the water molecules are still dispersed up to 1% with good additives, but it is now visible. The water, even though dispersed, is a major problem because it doesn't stand up to the pressure in bearing surfaces. Old tractor owners keep posting here about their "milk shake" UTF oil, and I keep addressing their problem. Due to the way that they use their tractors they are getting way more moisture than the oil can possibly absorb. The problem is usually a lot more than just storage time. Time between uses is combined with short run times at little to no load which could easily result in water accumulating to more than five times 1% by volume in under two years. You may certainly advise people to change their UTF twice a year and I will continue to suggest that 8N owners use the cheap old oil that came in their tractors when new and let the water settle out and just let it dribble out the bottom once or twice a year, and change it every twenty years, which is just fine for these little used tractors. Thanks Again!!
TheOldHokie
Well-known Member
- Location
- Myersville, MD 21773
Stop with the made up numbers and sleight of hand shell game. It is really simple chemistry.
1) Condensation happens over time and is unrelated to what oil is in the sump.
2 The milkshake (emulsion) forms when condensate in the form of free water in the sump gets whipped into an emulsion by the mechanical agitation of the gears and pump.
3) In any given usage a UTF will remain clear longer than a plain oil because it can absorb more condensate. That means there is no free water (condensate) left in the sump to get whipped into an emulsion when you start the tractor.
TOH
This post was edited by TheOldHokie on 11/16/2022 at 04:04 am.
1) Condensation happens over time and is unrelated to what oil is in the sump.
2 The milkshake (emulsion) forms when condensate in the form of free water in the sump gets whipped into an emulsion by the mechanical agitation of the gears and pump.
3) In any given usage a UTF will remain clear longer than a plain oil because it can absorb more condensate. That means there is no free water (condensate) left in the sump to get whipped into an emulsion when you start the tractor.
TOH
This post was edited by TheOldHokie on 11/16/2022 at 04:04 am.
showcrop
Well-known Member
If my numbers are made up so are yours because I am using the same numbers, LOL. Yes, as I stated condensation is causing water to accumulate with either, and yes usage whips it into an emulsion. True, the UTF will remain clear as you stated and I agreed, up to .6%, but here is where you must have stopped reading my post. Yes, UTF will handle moisture up to that level but many owners, due to how they use their tractors, as I have stated for a few years, again and again, will accumulate far, far, more than UTF can hold. These are the owners to whom I speak. You and I both know that the water will separate out of cheap hydraulic oil. One of the first things that I do when I acquire a tractor is to drain the water off the bottom. And as I stated past where you stopped reading, what I have gotten out as have also other posters here has been way over the 1% by volume amount that you state. Thanks again for supporting my statements, and If you go back and read the rest of my last statement I am sure that you will understand, and will pitch in to help all these guys with coffee milkshake UTF.
TheOldHokie
Well-known Member
- Location
- Myersville, MD 21773
Man you are hard headed.
[b:48f160bf0c][u:48f160bf0c]Free water in the sump causes emulsions and corrosion. FREE WATER is the problem[/u:48f160bf0c][/b:48f160bf0c]
If the tractor sits long enough in the right conditions no oil is going to prevent free water from forming. A UTF simply makes that formation process take longer because it can absorb more FREE WATER Once a UTF has absorbed all it can it is no differnt than a plain oil which has absorbed less. Once either oilhas sucked up as much as it can free water will begin to collect in the sump and can be drained off. A UTF type oil simply buys you a bigger window of time before you start getting that nasty free water. UTF does not create or aggravate the problem - it works to ameliorate it and it works in ALL TRACTORS regardless of their usage and storage conditions
TOH
[b:48f160bf0c][u:48f160bf0c]Free water in the sump causes emulsions and corrosion. FREE WATER is the problem[/u:48f160bf0c][/b:48f160bf0c]
If the tractor sits long enough in the right conditions no oil is going to prevent free water from forming. A UTF simply makes that formation process take longer because it can absorb more FREE WATER Once a UTF has absorbed all it can it is no differnt than a plain oil which has absorbed less. Once either oilhas sucked up as much as it can free water will begin to collect in the sump and can be drained off. A UTF type oil simply buys you a bigger window of time before you start getting that nasty free water. UTF does not create or aggravate the problem - it works to ameliorate it and it works in ALL TRACTORS regardless of their usage and storage conditions
TOH
showcrop
Well-known Member
"Hint - more is better and a premium formulation can suck up 1% by volume". Why can you not read this statement that you made??and so often waaaaay more than that 1% is in the case, so your window is not significant. The difference is literally just a few drops. So far as free water being drained from under UTF, The posters with that problem as well as my own experience shows the UTF holding suspended water in emulsion for months, without a drop of free oil under it, where plain oil will let most of it go in minutes while most of the rest will come out in a few hours. Maybe I can get some pics.
TheOldHokie
Well-known Member
- Location
- Myersville, MD 21773
nnalert[/b:c3f4e82b13] window than you get with plain oils that have a much smaller window.
Using a good quality UTF [b:c3f4e82b13]DOES NOT[/b:c3f4e82b13] accelerate the accumulation of water or the formation of emulsions in any tractor. It slows it down.
TOH
This post was edited by TheOldHokie on 11/16/2022 at 09:59 am.
H
HFJ
Guest
my ain true love Greta and I have changed all lubricants in our vehicles to butter. we use Land O Lakes unsalted.
H
HFJ
Guest
now this is a perfect example of why i read this forum:
bless u for this insight, good sir.
bless u for this insight, good sir.
Dave G9N
Member
side from the 303 stuff, which is the subject of a class action lawsuit, most tractor fluids saying that they meet M2C134 are ok.
I am going to step in it and say some things about moisture and oil grades. The argument over the amount of water that can be in solution is moot. We all agree that too much moisture is bad and too much isn't a heck of a lot. 1% water content is off the charts for all but the PAG lubricating oils. For any reasonable hydraulic fluid for these tractors, 300 ppm (0.03%) is about the maximum amount of water than can be in solution. Don't believe me, read this, Figures 8 and 9. https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28697/humidity-saturation-limits
Bottom line is that the oil will eventually be contaminated by water condensing from humid air. If you don't live in the Mojave desert, you have to change it annually. If you could get a non-detergent oil, and if there is a place in the sump where water can collect without getting churned up, it might be better to use that and drain the water periodically. I would want a smaller drain plug for that.
You can remove the water, but new oil is cheaper than the equipment needed to dry it. https://www.sealingandcontaminationtips.com/remove-water-hydraulic-fluid/
I may be new here, but I am not new to motor vehicles in general. I grew up with a 9N, but in 10 years and a total of 2-300 hours of use, maintenance was not much of an issue until I left home when my father finally did work on it without me. It always started and ran without a hitch when I was living with it. Hence I have many years and few hours of experience using but not maintaining a 9N tractor. 50 years later I am finally getting my hands dirty on a tractor. I have overhauled 2 cycle Saabs, Corvairs, a Renault 16, a 78 Honda and dismantled a '28 Rolls engine, so I am not new to engines.
These tractors were designed to survive the oils available in 1939. That is not to say that those oils are good for the tractor, rather the tractor is resistant to the relatively poor quality oil available at the time it was built. The Ford flat head engine with its looser tolerances and lighter loads tolerates SA better than a newer, more highly stressed engine. SA oil is not good for any engine. Those were the days of 3000 mile oil change intervals, leaded gas, ridge reamers and surviving even 100,000 miles without a complete overhaul was impressive. Until the 70s, we just accepted the inevitable wear that the available oils were incapable of preventing. Older engines are better served by modern oils.
This is a list of oil grades over the years:
https://www.thelubricantstore.com/motor-oil-classifications
The typical description is "SC - Obsolete, not suitable for engines built after 1967." implies that it is good for engines built prior to 1967, which it isn't (unless you set your sights low enough). It should probably just read 'Obsolete - superseded by SD in 1967." It was only good enough for earlier engines because it was the best available at that time.
Back to hydraulic fluids. Tractor oil is good enough, but generally has friction modifiers for wet brakes and clutches that are a compromise between wear resistance and clutch friction. Cat has some heavy duty hypoid gear requirements that are not well served by oils with friction modifiers. I will continue to use a reputable tractor oil that claims to meet the long obsolete M2C134 spec, while recognizing that the claims to meet both M2C134 and TO-4 are mutually exclusive. I am sure there is a better alternative, but I'm not ready to bet the tractor on a hunch. See:
https://www.castrol.com/en_us/united-states/home/heavy-commercial-vehicles-oil-and-fluids/hd-focus-newsletter/engineering-solutions/understanding-the-differences-in-gear-oil-specs.html
This is a good general description of gear oils:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/gear-tribology-and-lubrication-part-i.57856/#post-729255
TheOldHokie
Well-known Member
- Location
- Myersville, MD 21773
I see you arenew here so welcome to the forum. There is a lot good there but I will confine my response to your assertions about water tolerance which was the central issue in this thread.
The big name fluids, specifically Kubota SUDT2, Case IH HyTran/Ultraction, and JD Hy-Guard are all capable of absorbing [b:aa1c76987e]1% OR MORE[/b:aa1c76987e] water by volume. Its part of their qualifying specifications and a stated performance level. If you don't believe me see the attached Case IH data sheet. I am also quite sure none of them are PAG oils.
I also don't live in the Mojave desert but I do have two Kubota tractors that have been sitting outside in very humid weather, rain, and changing temps for several years. One has a bad valve stem seal and has not been run for more than a few minutes in the last year so I restarted it to get things circulating. Neither of those tractors has any discernible free or emulsified water in the hydraulic oil which is several (i.e. more than two) years old.
And no - you won't get that level of performance from the cheapies like MAG 1. If you suffer from condensation problems you might want to consider a pail or two of Kubota SUDT2 - its $125 for 5 gallons and in the long run cheaper than changing cheaper oil annually. I don't own any Deere equipment but last I checked Hy-Guard is about the same price.
TOH
Dave G9N
Member
You clearly have an encyclopedic knowledge of the oils of interest to this forum. I have a less specific familiarity with these materials, but I do know the general principals well enough. My job was to get into the weeds on almost any material you can imagine. Too many weeds too many materials can't remember half of it.
We are talking about different aspects of the water content of oil. I was talking about the amount of moisture that can be dissolved in the oil. You were talking about the amount of oil that can be safely suspended in some oils. There are a handful of oils that can suspend a great deal of water that you are familiar with and I am not. In general, it is my impression that these oils are the exceptions to the rule. Generally, that much water in the oil is bad news.
Of the four oils that you listed that can safely absorb up to 1% water by volume, I only looked into Hytran on the sketchy assumption that it would be representative of the others. According to the SDS it is a mineral oil base with additives, some of which must be detergents and friction modifiers. Water is soluble in mineral oil in very small amounts, typically around 0.03%. Hytran contains detergent additives that allow it to suspend 1% by volume water. In general, that is enough water to cause problems with most other oils. For water to be in solution in a hydrocarbon, the hydrocarbon has to have some oxygen or nitrogen in the molecules or be mixed with some hydrocarbons with them. So are there some alcohols or amines in Hytran that can hold water in solution, not suspension? Maybe, but I doubt it.
Having looked around a bit, there is one warning that I would pass on. Not as an established fact, but something that should be verified if it applies to your equipment.
Condensation in equipment is a function of ventilation, humidity, extent of diurnal temperature cycling, operating temperatures, time... I should have said that there are fewer problems with moisture in dryer climates. If your equipment runs hot enough to dry the hydraulic oil, it may run hot enough to degrade it as well, so you still have to change it.
I did find a comment attributed to an Amsoil representative that the MS 1209 specs requires that the oil be suitable for use in an engine. Also, Amsoil does not list MS1209 for their tractor fluid because you can't use it in an engine. If that is true, it implies that the MS1209 additives are much more stable at higher operating temperatures than the additives normally found in hydraulic oils. I would not put this in an engine without asking the manufacturer directly. Several other tractor oils list MS1209 without mentioning where else to use it. I suspect marketing isn't talking to engineering.
We are talking about different aspects of the water content of oil. I was talking about the amount of moisture that can be dissolved in the oil. You were talking about the amount of oil that can be safely suspended in some oils. There are a handful of oils that can suspend a great deal of water that you are familiar with and I am not. In general, it is my impression that these oils are the exceptions to the rule. Generally, that much water in the oil is bad news.
Of the four oils that you listed that can safely absorb up to 1% water by volume, I only looked into Hytran on the sketchy assumption that it would be representative of the others. According to the SDS it is a mineral oil base with additives, some of which must be detergents and friction modifiers. Water is soluble in mineral oil in very small amounts, typically around 0.03%. Hytran contains detergent additives that allow it to suspend 1% by volume water. In general, that is enough water to cause problems with most other oils. For water to be in solution in a hydrocarbon, the hydrocarbon has to have some oxygen or nitrogen in the molecules or be mixed with some hydrocarbons with them. So are there some alcohols or amines in Hytran that can hold water in solution, not suspension? Maybe, but I doubt it.
Having looked around a bit, there is one warning that I would pass on. Not as an established fact, but something that should be verified if it applies to your equipment.
hey also talked about Hytran swelling seals more than other oils. In this case it was a good thing. There are many rubbers and they all swell or shrink differently in different fluids. Even within a class like Nitrile, it varies a lot. Something else to consider if your equipment was not designed with this oil in mind.
Condensation in equipment is a function of ventilation, humidity, extent of diurnal temperature cycling, operating temperatures, time... I should have said that there are fewer problems with moisture in dryer climates. If your equipment runs hot enough to dry the hydraulic oil, it may run hot enough to degrade it as well, so you still have to change it.
I did find a comment attributed to an Amsoil representative that the MS 1209 specs requires that the oil be suitable for use in an engine. Also, Amsoil does not list MS1209 for their tractor fluid because you can't use it in an engine. If that is true, it implies that the MS1209 additives are much more stable at higher operating temperatures than the additives normally found in hydraulic oils. I would not put this in an engine without asking the manufacturer directly. Several other tractor oils list MS1209 without mentioning where else to use it. I suspect marketing isn't talking to engineering.
TheOldHokie
Well-known Member
- Location
- Myersville, MD 21773
Could we limit our discussion to the application and question at hand? Nobody is interested in speculation about using Hytran or any other formulation in an engine.
The bottom line is there are multiple formulations of UTTO that are capable of removing free water in the proportions I stated. My knowledge is not encyclopedic but I am sure there are more than the three well known names I cited.
By design the proprietary chemical "magic" they use does so without forming emulsions or precipitates. The people that design and build tractors are in agreement - this is the most effective and least damaging strategy for managing water intrusion in their machines. They have spent decades and lots of money researching chemistries and fine tuning these formulations.
Getting back to the central point. Some formulations do a better job at this than others. But regardless of the quantitative ability of any given formulation the chemistries used in UTTO do not contribute to increased water intrusion in any machine or environment. That is the exact opposite of how they are designed. Water is going to aggregate at the sane rate regardless of what oil is in the sump. UTTO simply tries to limit the damage it does by maintaing as much of it as possible in the most favorable state. As with plain oil when its limits are reached you wind up with free water, precipitates, and/or water in oil emulsions.
TOH
This post was edited by TheOldHokie on 12/02/2022 at 01:59 pm.
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