Vintage Electrical

[Doug-Iowa]

My son and his fiance are looking at acreages and they ask me and his mother to go along to help look. We visited this older farm house that was 90% original throughout, electric was still knob and tube and what I could see of it not butchered up with Romex splices like you usually find. This panel was still live except for the well pump which they had switched to rural water. I admire the care that went into the careful wire bends and hand lettering. Life was simpler back then, just a few necessary circuits and one luxury, the iron. I imagine the whole house was on a 30 amp service back in the day.

 

[Buddy]

People took pride in their work back thin.

 

[DoubleO7]

Does look very professional.
There is even a "period" at end of each label.

But.......can you even get homeowners insurance with that electrical system?

 

[JMOR]

House I grew up in had only that 2 fuse/knife switch at upper left, one fuse for lights & one for outlets. After high school, I replaced & made some additions for window units, etc. and when I took that old fuse holder off the wall, there was charred wood behind it & a miracle the house never burned.

 

[Janicholson]

Interesting. If the 2 fuses in each circuit are one in the neutral and one in the hot, it is nasty bad. A blown fuse in the neutral leaves everything on that circuit hot and deadly. I had a house in San Jose that was wired as that. the preinspection city employee was impressed that it lasted as long with no deaths. Jim

 

[Stephen Newell]

I don't believe there is a neutral in the picture. I think each of the fuses are a separate circuit.

 

[Jon Erickson]

That is an interesting picture of how things used to be. Thanks for posting it.

 

[K Effective]

Does that make the iron 220V then?

Our house was knob and tube, except for the baseboard electric heaters and the 200A panel installed in 1964.

 

[jeffcat]

I think if it looks like and actually is, that would make it 240v circuts. Have a feeling it is neutral and hot. My first girlfriend's house was wired this way, and that is in the late 60s! Notice how there are two wires for everything listed. A 120v iron gives it away. Still leaning towards lines were double fused. Crazy! Bet your bunns the wrong one would blow. Now here is a thought. Let ue ask Stephen to go take a couple of close ups. I bet you the live line fuse is maybe 25% lower amperage fuse with the logic being if the output side line really shorts out everthing gets blown thus cutting off all possible power with no chance of any feedback. Some of the equipment in our kitches have double fuse setups like that for 240 and one of the roto ovens from Germany had 35 fuses as where the American version built the next year had only 15. Makes ya think. What ya think gang?

 

[jeffcat]

Dangerous. ...still thinking. Could it be that the ones in the picture are only the power/hot side thus a 240 supply. The neural/ ground is supplied by another copper wire run along side these? But also notice that as labled everything is a single item listing. Now my thinker is starting to hurt. Nope, still think hot and neutral. If you go way way back in rural electrification then it could be very possible that is a 120v system from the fist power grid. Very basic service at best. BRAIN storm. Just remembered were I have seen a building wired this way. In 1989 and 1990 me and the ex went to Camp Perry, Ohio for the national shoots. The little 4 man barracks were built during the first war for Italian prisoners. They had a little porcelain fuse holder over the door up under the eves. Had TWO fuses for 120 volts. Yup double fused. Just knew I had seen it somewhere.

 

[Dopp Creek]

Some still do. This is a panel I looked at a month ago. Like you say, some look like a bowl of spaghetti and others are tidy and well-labeled. It is amazing that someone hasn't been in that panel and loaded it up with extra circuits over the years.

 

[Stephen Newell]

I've never seen anyone put a neutral line on a fuse. Therefore I think there is 240v available. Each fuse block on the right is attached to a separate leg. I'm not sure how they used to fuse 240v. If it was done with each line fused individually the box probably should be replaced with circuit breakers. If it's all 110v lines I wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

[Doug - Iowa]

Looking at the picture closer I can see the shadow of something in the center, possibly where once was an old time kwh meter? I also wondered if this panel could have been supplied by a Delco or Fairbanks home light plant. There was a concrete pad in the basement I thought might have been the well pump but could have easily been for a light plant. Maybe a home light plant didn't ground one side to make a neutral?

Needless to say, the kids are going to have to pass on this house. Since they are first time home buyers the banks are raking them over the coals on everything they look at. This one will never pass. Between the inspection costs and paperwork fees they are trying to burn thru what down payment they have saved up before they tell them no. I told one banker to take the "Community Banker" off his business card cause that is the last thing that blood sucking outfit is. I'd hate to have to start over in this day and age.

 

[bishopNlouisiana]

This reminds me of when I was about 10 years old. My father and I was digging a pool in Tennessee where I grew up.
The solid granite shelf was about 36" below the surface of the ground, and we dug through the rock with jackhammers and dynamite to make the deep end. I would drill a hole with the jackhammer drill and Dad and I would go to the hardware store to buy a few sticks of dynamite.
I remember the clerk placing several sticks in a paper bag along with the blasting caps.
My father used a #2 pencil to jab a hole in the stick, put in the cap and Dad would connect the cap wires to a 110v light fixture in the back yard,

We would go to the power panel in the utility room by the carport and I would screw a round fuse into the socket that would set off the dynamite. The house was about 100' away from the pool.
Several times the house would get a shower of small rocks that would hit the roof.

Like the photo, it reminds me of the good old days where anyone could walk into a store and buy dynamite.

 

[Oliver 500 Wa]

Friends were looking to buy an older home on a bit of acreage to use as a rental. Inspector flagged the electrical service as a significant issue. Bank refused to loan with that. My friends were able to get the seller to have the electrical repaired/replaced so the deal could proceed.

 

[ss55]

Is that from the 1910's, or 1920's? Some older farm steads were originally wired for 32 volt Wind Chargers before REA electricity was available on rural farms. The craftsmanship is great, but it could still be undersized and obsolete. Rewireing through plaster lath walls is not as easy as it is through sheet rock.

I would strongly suggest hiring a home inspector and adding an inspection clause to any offer on an older home. The price could be around $500 but it can save some expensive headaches down the road: roof; foundation; electrical; plumbing; septic system; water drainage; etc. Inspectors can provide a rough ballpark (order of magnitude) on what upgrades could cost.

 

[Harold Hubbard]

Insurance inspector said he would rather see well done knob and tube than ratty old cloth covered Romex.

 

[dr sportster]

Well I have pinstriped a panel cover I can't say I have ever seen the circuits hand lettered. I'm impressed !

 

[paul]

My farmhouse had a generator plant and battery bank in the basement, dad was a kid when it was built.

I thought it was 48v, but I might have heard wrong.

Rea electric came by just a few years later.

The farm was run on a 60 amp service until 2008 when I rewired. It's interesting with deep well, welder, electric clothes drier, electric water heater, range and oven, and so on on 60 amps.

Paul

 

[Brian G. NY]

(quoted from post at 00:00:16 04/14/18) Interesting. If the 2 fuses in each circuit are one in the neutral and one in the hot, it is nasty bad. A blown fuse in the neutral leaves everything on that circuit hot and deadly.

I have seen only remnants of knob and tube wiring in old houses that have been upgraded to modern wiring.

I did a little googling and found out that you are correct in that
fusing of both the hot and neutral lines was often the practice in the beginning. You are also correct that it is a dangerous situation.

Click here: http://www.ashireporter.org/HomeInspection/Articles/Knob-and-Tube-Wiring-A-Revisit/14995

 

[Ozlander]

(quoted from post at 18:28:21 04/13/18) Does that make the iron 220V then?

That's what they are in Germany.

 

[Goose]

Yeah. When I was doing inspections, I had to photograph and report any knob and tube wiring I saw. Any substandard or defective wiring for that matter.

 

[Janicholson]

It could be that the original thinking was faulty across the world. The thinking could have been that since it was AC, that if the short happened when the electricity was going "out" it would trip one fuse,, if going bact, it would trip the other. Having owned a house from 1914 wired that way, I know it happened. Our house wiring was just wrong, with silk covered floor lamp wire used to feed the kitchen from the near bare knob and tube wires. No solder, just carbonized friction tape. Jim

 

[buickanddeere]

A new Square D QO panel, not the cheapo Homeline with aluminum buss bars .
I wish that I had used this interlock here instead of purchasing the square D with the built in transfer switch. Too many circuits here and only have two spaces left.
Square D Breaker panel with built in transfer switch works excellent at the daughter's house . As there are fewer circuits and the heavy loads such as clothes dryer and electric stove are not on the generator side of the panel. No forgetting and overloading the generator.https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-QO-150-225-Amp-Load-Center-Indoor-Generator-Interlock-Kit-QOCGK2C/203046553