Weak Spark?

I posted a while ago about replacing the wiring harness, spark plugs, distributor cap & SP wires. At the time, I was breaking rotors and discovered that I had the cap on wrong! That is fixed, and the rotor is working fine. I "upgraded" the plugs to the autolite 437s (I think what was on there were 295s).

Here's the thing, the starter is cranking, everything is turning, but I'm not getting ignition. When I take out a plug and crank the starter, I see a spark, but it doesn't seem like much.

Not being too familiar with this sort of thing, my theory is that the coil is worn out so it's not delivering enough juice to make a good spark.

Any ideas on how to validate that or alternate theories?
 
When you ask a question here, it’s usually a good idea to tell us:

1. The model of your tractor (2N, 9N, 8N, NAA, etc).

2. If it is 6v or 12v.

3. If it’s an N, if the distributor is on the front or side of the engine.

4. If it has any major parts that are not OEM, such as electronic ignition, a side coil on a front distributor, etc.

Troubleshooting is different depending on the model of the tractor, voltage, ignition system & distributor placement.

Coil problems are difficult to diagnose. For starters, round coils are pretty robust & square coils aren’t (because of the difference in insulation used), but neither one will hold up to a poorly done 12v conversion that allows too much current to the coil or leaving the key on (see tip # 38). Too much current creates heat which melts the insulation. Insufficient resistance in a 12v conversion will do the same thing. Rarely do coils just “go bad.”



There are a few ways to see if a coil is bad, but it’s not possible to determine if a coil is good w/o some expensive testing equipment. If you detect a dead short or high resistance in the coil w/ an ohm meter, it’s bad. If it’s cracked, it’s bad. If a sidemount coil w/ battery voltage to the primary will not jump a ¼” gap from the secondary wire to the block, it’s bad. But, here is the hard part: even if you do not detect a short, even if it will produce a spark, even if it’s not cracked, that doesn’t mean the coil will work when it’s hot & under a load. So, it’s a process of elimination. If the tractor starts & runs fine for 30 minutes or an hour then cuts off & refuses to re-start, and you checked for spark at the plugs & it had no spark at all, AND you have the correct voltage at the coil that’s a good sign that you have a bad coil. Let it cool off, restart it & if you have a good spark, odds are it’s a bad coil. But, even then, you might end up w/ a spare coil on the shelf!



Bottom line.......coils do go bad, but I'll venture a guess that 75% of new N coils sold today are sold to folks who do not understand how to diagnose a poor spark problem or how a coil works. So, for those who don’t know any better, in a no spark or weak spark situation the first suspect is usually the coil……and, more often than not, it isn’t the problem.

Post back and tell us what you have, 6v or 12v, front or side distributor & plenty of folks can help you get it running.
50 Tips
 
'52 8n
6v
side mount distributor
Everything appears to be stock or OEM save the spark plugs that I just replaced.

Like I said, I'm new to this game, so if there is something more likely at fault than the coil, please provide suggestions. I've read the 50 tips, other forum posts and the documents that I've purchased that are reproductions of originals. Nothing that I've read so far points to a solution. I'm sure it's there in the forums, but not with terminology with which I'm familiar.
 
What did the spark color look like when it jumped the gap? Also, take an old plug and widen that gap out to 3/16. Then tell us what you have.
 
I"ll have to try the old plug test when I get home
this evening.

The spark is blue, it just doesn"t seem as strong as
I expected - especially since these plugs are
supposed to be "better" than stock.
 
Going down there next week to get some Chicken Fried Bacon. Of course I will have my nitro pills and a healthy belt of Makers Mark ready for the after effects. It may sound repugnant, but tastes quite good.
 
" so if there is something more likely at fault than the coil, please provide suggestions. "

I'd bet your coil is fine because it's a 6v round coil. I'd also be surprised if any parts are faulty. What's needed instead of parts is some diagnostic work. Maybe something is broke, but I doubt it.

In the 45+ years I’ve been trying to keep old cars & tractors running, I’ve tried a number of different methods to get a non-running car/truck/tractor to start. One way was to just start replacing every part I could get to until it started or I ran out of money. (Remove the radiator cap & drive a new tractor under it) Another way was to take the good intentioned advice of my non-mechanic friends who would tell me that when their vehicle had the same symptoms, it was the whatever that was broke or needed adjusting. I’d then try that, usually w/o getting it to run. But, when I was occasionally successful, from that point on, every time the vehicle had those symptoms, I was confident that the same fix as before would work again. It usually didn’t. Unfortunately for me, this approach was reinforced by watching real mechanics take 10 minutes to fix a problem that I couldn’t fix in 10 hours. It took a while before I figured out that my experience of working on one or two different vehicles 8 or 10 hours a month just wasn’t the same as working on 10 or 20 different makes/models of vehicles 40 hours a week. The one way that I did find the best results with is to take a systematic, step-by-step approach to solving the problem, working from most likely to least likely. The trick to fixing these tractors (or trouble shooting any piece of equipment) is to be systematic about it. You need to isolate the problem step by step and work from most likely to least likely. Jumping ahead to 'so-and-so said it could be whatever' or just replacing parts usually just wastes your time and your money. I know it did for me. Remember, it takes three things for an engine to run: spark at the right time, compression, & fuel in the right mixture. For the moment, forget about compression & concentrate on narrowing the problem to fuel or spark. If you don’t do that, you are going to end up chasing your tail around that tractor & spending a boatload of money to fix what could easily be a loose wire or failure to turn the fuel on. I offer this advice from personal experience because I am not a mechanic. I do not have the ability learned after 30 years of working on an N tractor to simply diagnose the problem & go right to the fix. So, whenever my tractors stop, it's 'check spark, check fuel' and then go from there. You can also think of it in these terms:



First -- Check the free stuff
Second -- Check the cheap stuff
Third -- Check the expensive stuff



I might not be capable of telling you why your tractor isn’t running, but I sure can tell you how to figure it out for yourself.

There are three very important tools you always need to have in your N tool box: a 3 inch piece of wire w/ alligator clips on each end, an old spark plug w/ the gap opened to at least 3/16” ( ¼” is better) and a 7/16 box end wrench. (see tip # 50 at the link below) And, you really do need a working ammeter on the tractor; it is a very important diagnostic tool. With these tools, you can quickly narrow down most N problems to spark or fuel.



First, check for fuel. Get a can & put it under the carb. Remove the bolt in the bottom of the carb; as long as the fuel is turned on, you should see gas flowing out of the carb. Let it run for at least 30 seconds. If it’s a dribble, or runs for 5 seconds & stops, or none at all, you have solved half the problem: it’s fuel related. If gas flows well out of the carb & only stops when you turn it off at the sediment bowl, chances are very good it’s not a fuel problem. So, next, turn the key on, crank the engine & look at the ammeter. What is the needle doing? Does it show a constant discharge, no movement at all, or does it move back & forth slightly? Next, get the old plug, ground it to a rust & paint free spot on the engine, turn the key on & crank the engine. If the spark jumps the 3/16” gap, you probably don’t have a spark problem. If it won’t jump the 3/16” gap, you have a spark problem. If the ammeter needle shows a constant discharge, or doesn’t move at all, that also tells you that you have a spark problem. Jump the ignition switch w/ your jumper wire & see what happens. If it runs, you found the problem. If it doesn’t have spark after you jump the ignition switch, check the voltage across the points when they are open. (it should be about 6.35v) Verify the gap on the points at .025. Then, run a piece of brown paper bag or card stock trough them. New points sometimes have a residue & old points can corrode, or get grease from the distributor cam on them. Or, you could have used a dirty feeler gauge. (I always spray mine off w/ contact cleaner.) Make sure you have voltage across the points, as in past the insulator on the side of the distributor. That is a very common failure point on sidemounts & often hard to find because it is usually an intermittent short. (If you find the short there, the Master Parts catalog lists everything you need on page 154. You can make the strip and you could also make the insulators as well. But, somethings are just easier & in the long run cheaper to buy. Get the strip, 12209, screw 350032-S, 12233 bushing & 12234 insulator & just replace it all.)If you just replaced the rotor & lost spark, put the old one back in. Check continuity on the secondary coil wire. Make sure it is firmly seated in both the cap & the coil. In fact, replace it temporarily w/ a plug wire.

If that doesn't work, post back for more info on further troubleshooting. (and do not forget to turn the ignition switch off; see tip # 38)



If it does not have gas coming out of the carb at a steady stream w/ the bolt out for at least 30 seconds, you have a fuel problem. First, remove the gas cap. Your vent could be clogged & it vacuum locked. If that doesn’t work, tap the carb bowl w/ a hammer handle in case the float is sticking closed. (don’t whack it w/ the head of the hammer; you can crack the bowl). If you still don’t see gas flowing, the N has three fuel screens; one in the brass elbow, one in the top of the sediment bowl & one on the stem of the sediment bowl in the gas tank. Check the screen in the elbow & the screen in the top of the sediment bowl. (don’t worry about the one in the tank) Both probably need to be cleaned. If you have the fuel knob turned on all the way, & 1 gallon or less in the tank, it may be trying to feed off of the reserve inlet which is probably clogged. Only open it 2 full turns. Put at least 2 gallons in the tank. (and do not forget to turn the gas off; see tip # 9)



There are ways to check for spark & fuel that work & ways that don't. For example, having gas to the carb is nice, but having it past the float is what counts! That’s why removing the bolt in the bottom of the carb is the way to do it. And, same thing w/ spark at the plugs. Some folks think that checking for spark means pulling a plug wire off & looking for one. Well, it's the distance the spark jumps at the plug that gives you the info you want. It takes about 17kv to jump a 3/16" gap & 22kv to jump ¼” in the open air, so that's why you need to use a spark plug. Or, a store bought plug checker (on the left in the picture). Remember, it’s 14psi outside of the engine & about 90psi at a 6:1 compression ratio in the cylinders & compressed air creates electrical resistance, so you really need the 17-22kv to fire the plugs when the engine is running.

Post back w/ results; I'll be interested in what the problem was.
DSC02519.jpg

50 Tips
 
Looks like I was wrong and the spark was sufficient.

I took the drain plug out of the carb and it barely trickled. I opened the sediment bowl to find it with quite a bit of sediment and the filter screen was a little plugged, too. After still seeing only a trickle, i took out the filter from the carb end of the line, tapped it out and found it to be running a little better, but it's still not quite the rate of flow I expected. I went ahead and gave it a shot and - what do you know - it started up! So, it looks like I have a little more work to do, but we're running again.

I have a couple of questions that I've listed on a new thread since this piece is effectively closed.

That new thread is here: http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=nboard&th=766869
 
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