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welding root pass?

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firhead

Member
I'm not a welder, but I attempt to stick things together. If I'm doing filet welds with 1/4 - 3/8 mild steel, is it advisable to do a root pass with 6011 first, then finish up with 7018 for cover passes, or am I making this too complicated and should just stick with 7018 for everything. These joints are going to be taking some stress.
Thanks
Cliff
 
DO all the passes with the 7018. Ditch the 6011 rod it is crap weld rod. Or in other words rod made to be used on nasty metal. I've been welding since I was 16 and soon that will make it 50 years of welding and some as a living
 
The real welders say run 7018 all passes . If its rusty crappy metal you cant get clean 6011 will burn it clean
 
The root pass should always be 6010.
6011 if you do not have a DC welder.
Gives you better penetration.

I was taught to weld pipe in the 6g position with 6010 uphill.
They would not let us use 7018 or weld downhill.
Said 7018 and downhill was for people that did not know how to weld.
Plus 7018 not stored in an oven are trash.

Yes once out in the field we would do a 6010 root pass and a 7018 filler and cap downhill when allowed to because it was so easy and would pass the test.
 
A lot depends on what you are welding. Since 7018 will burn almost through on the first pass I would not even bother with the root pass. Root passes work for thicker material like 1/2 and more thick. 1/8 inch rod with about 120amps will work fine and penetrate almost through so if you need to just make a pass on the back side. I never trusted welds on one side of things. Had to many not hold up like it was not braced so to speak.
 
(quoted from post at 03:08:31 12/19/21) I'm not a welder, but I attempt to stick things together. If I'm doing filet welds with 1/4 - 3/8 mild steel, is it advisable to do a root pass with 6011 first, then finish up with 7018 for cover passes, or am I making this too complicated and should just stick with 7018 for everything. These joints are going to be taking some stress.
Thanks
Cliff
Click to expand...
7018 is low hydrogen rod, so it should never be used without a root pass or a backer plate.
 
(quoted from post at 21:29:35 12/18/21) DO all the passes with the 7018. Ditch the 6011 rod it is crap weld rod. Or in other words rod made to be used on nasty metal. I've been welding since I was 16 and soon that will make it 50 years of welding and some as a living
Click to expand...

Why people keep saying that 6011 is garbage, I don't know. It is one of the most versatile rods out there. It is not for everything but it most certainly has it's place. It is all position, all polarity, a/c or d/c. Many times, nothing else will do the job.
 
Grind the mill scale and rust from the welding zone and that is one pass work with 7018 when the correct size rod and welder settings are used.
 
Agree with some/most, but not with others
You mentioned a filet weld - are you talking about 1/4 to 1/4?, 1/4 to 3/8?. or 3/8 to 3/8?? And, what kind of stress
Some mentioned E6010 (also known as 5P), that's a pipeline rod for root welds, and in some instances, the cap.
E7018 (also known to some as generic LH) sometimes used for cap on pipeline and structural. I've never run LH downhill.....
You mentioned mild steel - I'm assuming you're referring to A36
If you're doing 1/4 to 1/4 or 1/4 to 3/8 a single pass with 1/8 LH @ 120 - 130 amps should be fine
If you're doing 3/8 to 3/8 I would suggest a 3 pass with 1/8 LH

Just for the record:
Certified State of Oklahoma for pipeline at 6G position
Certified @ The Boeing Company for structural welding on the MX program
Certified @ McDonnell Douglas in GTAW and SMAW (Tig and stick)

RE58
 
No one has mentioned difference between brands. I've experienced it, and it's maddening. As a farmer looking for a versatile repair rod, Lincoln 6011 has worked well for us for over 50 years.
 
I never weigh in on these welding threads because so much of what you read is just bunk so no need for me to add more. But I wanted to mention that I never understood people who say you need a rod oven.
The reason for a rod oven is to evaporate the moisture (H2O) out of the flux. The hydrogen (H) in water causes porosity in a weld.
7018 is a low hydrogen rod designed to reduce porosity.
But...
As soon as you start welding, the rod heats up mighty fast. So after the first 1/2in of rod burned there is no moisture left in the rest of it.
Maybe on some fancy xrayed weld you care about that first 1/2in. But most of us are not good enough welders in the first place for that 1/2in to matter much. If you do have to have 100% porosity free welds you will be using a die grinder to grind out your welds after each pass anyway so grind out the first bit of each rod start.
If I was welding something that had to be REALLY good I might throw a handful of rod in the oven in the kitchen.
Normally though I just grab what I need out of the box on the shelf and have at it. I am not a good enough welder anymore for it to matter.
Keeping your rod in a heated rod oven is just a waste of electricity for about 98 % of us.

Edit: knowing if you are usung AC or DC would better help us answer your question

This post was edited by Ultradog MN on 12/19/2021 at 05:16 am.
 
Rocket. You're helping me out here. I'm dealing with mounting an old pickup snow plow to part of an under carriage, that will eventually be welded on to a 3/8 quick tach plate. This is crude stuff. So three passes with 1/8 7018 at 130 amp give or take should be sufficient? I might even be going 3/8 to 1/2 at some juncture; some of what I'm dealing with was 'enhanced' by someone long after it left the factory.
 
Alotof good advise here, most is probably useful for given situations. My only input that was not seen(or I missed it) is that 6010/6011 is a fast freeze rod and 7018 is not. I often weld the first pass with fast freeze- especially if working with different material thickness/type suck as frame rails, bed box liners, hoe buckets, loader buckets, and in my experience, I have had 7018 burn through on first pass if I could not generate the ideal joint/seem, meaning worn buckets of variable thickness, cracked frames, worn hitches, gate and fence posts and hinges, etc.
I do not know if this is a stronger method than doing all 7018 and just welding lower amperage and partial passes to get a root pass, then generally capping with 7018, but a fast freeze pass to close all gaps, and build up the thickness then capping with 7018 has been very strong and reasonably efficient as far as time and rod consumption but multiple electrode is necessary for this method. I have build up component with 7018 and 6011 then machined back down. I feel that the 7018 is always a harder material to cut down.
 
Dog,
Interesting to hear your view on necessity of rod oven for 7018. I recall Chucky2009 (of welding video fame) having this same observation: how critical is it for us doing farm-grade repair/fab to have welds of ultimate quality? I think, well, if it's 90% as good as perfect, that's OK for my tasks. If it's only 50% as good, that's something else.
As far as AC or AC/DC availability goes, I have DC available, but have a lot of 6011 laying around.
My take away from all this input so far is do 7018 right and I'll be OK.
 
I have experienced the difference in 7018 before and after it being dried like warmed at 250 in the kitchen. Out of the box from the shed it would weld different than the warmed rod. If you want an easy to weld with all position rod 7014 will do it on both AC and DC. If you are steady enough the slag will curl right up off the bead as it cools.
 
I wouldn't call myself a welder but I get by. Mostly self taught with a lot of watching and listening along the way. Some college classes as well later on in life.

From my point of view if it's pretty you want go with the 7018. If you are more interested in it holding go with the 6011. Both will do what you want if done properly. Problem is it's too easy to make a pretty cold weld with a 7018. It's almost impossible with a 6011. JMO
 
A fillet weld and an open butt or vee groove weld are 2 totally different animals. A fillet weld does not require a root pass as such. A open butt weld does. Piping work or boiler tube work requires the inside of the pipe to be smooth with no slag getting to the inside of the pipe. That can be accomplished with a chill ring, welding the first pass with TIG or some codes allow a first pass of 6010, which is a fast freeze rod that when properly run leaves very little to no slag inside the pipe. A fillet weld has no open butt so there is no reason what so ever to put a 6010 or 6011 pass first. You have lowered the tensile strength of the weld by 10,000 Psi by doing so. I usually stay away from these discussions because I see so much misinformation that I stay clear to avoid an argument. I do have 50 + years under the hood and still welding every day.
 
Russ from MN,

Melt through welds are NOT always specified.
Just one of many types of welds required by the application,

Guido.
cvphoto111388.jpg
 
6011 is novice rod as in almost any body can make a good looking weld with it but it is not near as strong as 7018 or 7014. 6011 is 60,000 lbs rod and 7014/7018 is 70,000lbs rod and penetrates better if done RIGHT
 
firhead - pics are worth a thousand words, drawings/blueprints even more. Without seeing anything else I really can't opine further. If able to put the filet on both sides, all the better. If you can supply some sort of pic/dwg I'd be happy to further opine. Three passes with 1/8 LH on 3/8 to 3/8 or 3/8 to 1/2 @ 120 - 130 amps should be fine. Even better if you have a DC reverse polarity machine. Good luck in your endeavor.

RE58
 
OK, here's the project. Going to cut off the left part of the piece on the left so I have enough meat with the holed flanges attached, so I can weld this to a 3/8 thick quick tack plate. Then I can run the ears from the turret frame into the flanges, pin them, and be set. I guess my query is: what do I use to weld the piece with the flanges on to the 3/8 Plate?

cvphoto111444.jpg


cvphoto111445.jpg


cvphoto111446.jpg
 
Rocket,
Problem is, I don't know exactly what all this stuff is called. When I refer to the 'piece on the left', it's probably self-evident. I figure on cutting off the left and right protrusions directly behind the two corresponding, vertical sections of what appear to be pretty stout channel. This ought to give me plenty of linear run to weld a lot, vertical and horizontal, tying the resultant flange-containing frame onto the quick tach plate.
You're right. I think pictures will help us here. Thanks.
 
i've been around the welding trade for a few years. had my own mobile business for a while. kinda pick and choose my jobs now days. i've a lot of 7018. i've used 7018 where 9018 and 10018 was recommended with good results. i've used 6011 as well. simply put, there is a place in this world for both welding rods. wet 6011 dc/sp is great for cutting cast iron in a pinch by the way. good luck with your project.
 
Glad to see a real welder provide to complete answer, X2 on what you said. As you well know preforming general fab work is not welding transmission pipe, nor is it nuclear but that's where these discussions always seem to head. While I never worked solely as a welder I worked in equipmemt maintenance and plant design my entire life. I designed, helped weld and erected thousands of weldments made up of hot rolled A36 plate and hot rolled shapes. Of course everyone uses a MIG process now but back in the day when stick welding was the way the only rod used was low hydrogen, 70, 80 and some 11018. Am I bragging? NO! The point is through all that I never have seen a fabrication shop lay root passes of 6000 series rods in these applications, never. Many of these projects were done under the supervision of an engineering dept and certified plans. A fellow welding up his farm equipment certainly doesn't need to know how to preform a certifiable pipe weld and probably cannot do it if he was told how. Clean the weld area, use LH rod and go to work, period. If the the OP doesn't know about AC or DC EP or DC EN or how many amps then he has more issues doing his repair than is going to be solved here to begin witn.
 
Speaking of high strength rod...
The last real welding job I had was in 1991.
Company here in the Twin Cities was building the the tracks that fed torpedos into the tube for some new nuke subs the US was building. All of the steel we were welding was some kind of fancy, high strength alloy. We were using [b:654c4848f0]11018[/b:654c4848f0] rod. Big stuff 1/4in dia. Dunno why they didn't use dual sheild wire or some such but that's what they had us doing. Almost all of it flat but a little of it horizontal.
I was trying to buy my first house and needed a real job to qualify for the mortgage. After I got the house I quit the job :)
I burned a few pallets of that stuff in the year I was there.
Very boring but I could lay a very pretty bead in those days.
 
Please excuse my feeble attempt at the newest Paint 3D program, but I'm trying. Looking at the last pic, I assume that the cut lines will be where the red line is (2-places, left and right), and the backing plate is the blue shaded area. If that is the case, suggest that you either overlap the backing plate between the vertical cannels, or leaving it a 1/2 short on either side to allow place for a good fillet. Rotating the piece to allow flat fillets would be the easiest. Based on the thickness of the material that I can see, my suggestions would be to cut off what is not desired, clean (grind/sand) off the areas where the welding is going to occur to clean metal as best as possible, then clamp, tack (good tack) then weld with LH with a 3-pass regimen using 1/8 LH between 120 - 130 amps.

RE58
cvphoto111511.jpg
 
Butch. I think you're re-affirming what seems to be a common thread here: in my situation, essentially farm shop stuff, use 7018 and don't complicate things. I'll certainly never achieve consistent high quality weldments in the field like a professional. One can only get so far watching Utube videos. I think they can get a committed person started but I can see it takes a lot of hours under the hood and communicating with other professionals over time to master this thing. The thing is on these forums, eventually you find who has the experience, knows what they're talking about, and those who don't. You'll get the guy who has been 'working out of the same box of 6013 for years and it works out fine' for him, vs the folks that do x-ray level stuff daily. I appreciate those of you who are really knowledgeable to take the time out to guide the amateurs like me. Some times the questions seem kind of dumb, but we're being fed all levels of expertise, myth, guesswork, and half-baked theories. Thanks again for the informed advice.
 
Your welcome, Its a delicate balance to present real world experiance in these discussions without coming off as a know it all, which I am not. I don't advocate half baked repairs but there is also a point in all things where good enough is not eclipsed by adding more time, effort and $$
Good luck with the project!
 
Rocket - you're all over that Paint 3-D. You got EXACTLY what I tried to explain. Now the cardboard you see would be replaced by a quick tach adapter plate - which is approx 18 high, 48 wide. For scale here, the cardboard you see here is 48 wide. I cut the ears(?) off the flange frame(?) as you can see, and I figure I can just weld what's up against the cardboard to the plate (3/8 thick). So....3 passes of 7018 1/8 where I can get at it and I should be good to go, right? That ugly section of angle that sits on top is structural, so I guess I'll just get used to it. There's not much pretty about any of this.
cvphoto111522.jpg


cvphoto111523.jpg


cvphoto111524.jpg
 
I don't see that section of angle as having any structural purpose once the uprights are welded to the quick attach plate, unless you attach a center lift post to it. Since you will be pinning the A-frame to the ears, so it can float, I think you will want a center post at least a foot above the plate to attach the lifting chain to. Getting the lift point higher than the top of the plate will lessen the strain on a lift chain. That will simulate the way it lifted on a truck mount. Here are borrowed pictures of a couple set up that way.

mvphoto86024.jpg


mvphoto86025.jpg
 
Jim me,
Thanks for the observation. I can see what you mean by attaching the lift chain up somewhat. I was just figuring on my lift point being
the top of the plate but being higher than that would be better. Thanks.
Also, I'm missing shoes on my blade. It looks like on one of your pictures, the shoes - or glides in this case, are simply discs. Is that
what I'm seeing?
 
Not a pro welder here. I've burned a few pounds of rod over the years. Kind of sad to hear the hate for 6011. If the diff between 60k and 70k tensile strength is a concern, well - I guess it's going to be carrying the pope around.

Nothing wrong with 6011 for this project, but nothing wrong with 7018 either. Any idiot(like me I guess) can run a good bead with 6011. Takes a little bit more skill to keep a good puddle with 7018, at least for a putz like me.

I built an entire airplane hangar with 6011. Several +50MPH days and it's still standing. Farmer rod. I like that. I also like simple, cost effective stuff that works right. Lotta 6011 there, and it goes through rust like hot knife through butter.

mvphoto86031.jpg
 
I don't hate 6011. It is a great choice if
all you have is AC.
With just AC I would prefer it to the
supposedly AC rated 7018.
If you have DC then I think 7018 is an
easier rod to use.
There has been a LOT of farm machinery
built and repaired with an AC tombstone and
6011.
As for the strength difference, those
numbers are for skilled welders working
under optimum conditions.
I believe 1 in 100 - or more likely, 1 in
1000 - average home shop guys can weld well
enough to actually get the benefit of the
extra strength of 7018 over 6011.
I say you 'done good' on that building.
But don't let my compliments go to your
head just yet...
We had 70 mph gusts of wind here last week
so look out :)
 

Yes, those discs are shoes. They are adjusted for height with steel rings. Replacements, with adjusting rings, should be readily available at places that sell plow parts or online.
 
This is how I'd weld it if I was doing this - some may agree, some not. Three passes all around I consider excessive based on the amound of weld area that you have. If you want to weld a seal weld, single pass all the way around you could do it with a single pass. If you have the ability to bolt the adapter plate to the adapter, I'd do it to mitigate the potential warping of warping. Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

RE58
cvphoto111561.jpg
 
Example of seal and stitch - what can I say.... I'm bored. It's raining in east central coast Florida and I need something to do... It should be obvious that the sides that you cant see would be typical of the sides you can.


RE58
cvphoto111562.jpg
 
OK, cool. From what your seeing of my application here, if I stitch it, is one pass gonna be enough or should I go with more? I've got the time and the rod to do anything - just a little weak on the skill. I can run 7018 1/8 in there at around 130 if that will maybe do it. If I do one pass all the way around (no stitch), am I risking anything like warping it? I usually tack stuff up to avoid this, but I don't know often if it would not have warped anyway. This is where having been there a thousand or two times would come in handy. Thanks.
 
Can get that done. Did 3 passes mounting hooks on my bucket this summer I guess because my instinct told me to, and probably more because it was all flat and right there at waste height. Put a lot of tug on those hooks and they're still there, though.
 
I considered that very thing early on. I figure the front of the blade after I get everything rigged will be maybe 20 ahead of where the
front edge of the bucket would normally be. I've seen UTubes of guys rigging this kind of arrangement up - but everybody is doing it a little
different. My tractor is 50 horse, about 3500#. Won't know till I try it. Maybe will create another piece of bad yard art.
 
Years ago I had people ask me why I did a V plow instead of a straight snow plow. I told them very simple a V plow doesn't push the front end side ways so tat way yo can stay right where you want and if you need to make it wider you can still use one side or the other to widen where you just plowed. My V-plow is 8.5 foot wide which is more then enough to open up the driveway
 
I've had regular plows on the front of numerous pickups and never had a problem being thrown off course. But granted the geometry here is different and I don't have quite the mass behind me. Do have 4-wheel, though. We'll see.
 
A plow on a 4 wheel drive pickup is a lot different then having one on a 2 wheel drive tractor and it can tend to push you sideways. I've tried the straight plow on the bucket of a loader and found my self going off the road and having to stop back up and hit it again
 
I guess I wasn't clear on that: I do have 4-wheel on my current Tractor. I come from snow country. Back on the farm, it was 4-wheel drive, two wheel drive with chains, or it sat till the mud dried out a little in the spring. Even with chains on two wheel, I grant you: you're for sure going forward - but the exact direction can be dicey.
 
Okay if you have 4 wheel drive if it is true 4 wheel then you maybe okay. As for snow country you should try driving/riding on snow and ice on 2 wheels as in a motorcycle. Yes BTDT and you learned fast or you where on the ground. As for 2 wheel drive and chains having chains on all 4 does help
 
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