What are your thoughts?

[JF in MI]

I?m putting this under the tools heading as I don?t know which would better apply. Hope I don?t get myself in trouble with this.

I volunteer with a group that encourages teens toward careers that will desperately be seeking talent in the future by ?giving them a taste? (for lack of a better term) of what is involved. We have both boys and girls in our mentoring group. We have a girl who wants to become an aircraft mechanic. From my many years as an auto mechanic I feel she has considerable talent for this particularly in deductive reasoning and problem solving. While there is already a shortage of aircraft mechanics, and getting worse, I am concerned about her employment opportunities in say 10 years from simply being female in a male dominated trade. These type of careers usually require some form of on the job mentoring or apprenticeship at least in the beginning. In this day and age of #MeToo many men don?t want to risk their careers or have their lives destroyed by a claim from someone who may be in, for example, a temporary ?fragile hormonal? state. As evidenced by the Kavanaugh hearings gilt is assumed and proof is not necessary. I haven?t been in the work place for 10 years but even back then most of the male technicians and engineers, myself included, would never allow themselves to be alone, without witnesses, in any proximity of a female employee. For this reason I?m hearing that some companies, of all kinds, are reluctant to hire female employees. What are your thoughts?

On a side note; I am shocked at some of the boys in our group in that they seem to be clueless as to what even the simplest hand tools (a file for example) are used for. I fear we are breeding a generation of pansies.

 

[Janicholson]

There is not one valid reason to discourage this individual. The issue is not fragile women, (in any way shape or form) it is men with poor parenting that fail the self control test of being around and working with women. I teach women and men in lab based classes in manufacturing (casting, milling, turning, welding, sheet metal, and more. My first introduction on day one is that there shall be no difference in the actions of the students based on any factor. In 45 years of teaching there have been no failed or stopped out females in my classes. They are usually more successful and capable than the men in a cross section of skills and problem solving. Few situations in aircraft or other mechanic task situations provide that closed door circumstance, and it is never appropriate to ignore jokes or comments from men about women on or off site. Those are markers of failed upbringing. Keeping men with an attitude around is very dangerous, even if they are skilled, they are not skilled enough. Jim

 

[JF in MI]

I sincerely hope you're right but I'm not talking about men who harass, I'm talking about those who don't or wouldn't think of it but get accused anyway. I once was in the uncomfortable position of being a witness (against revenge) where a male supervisor was explaining to a female employee that her spending more time texting on her phone than working was the reason she was getting a minimal raise that year.

 

[Mike M]

I think the air force might be a good training program ?

 

[Charlie M]

There are a lot of places these days that once were all men and now include women. Companies that are run well and understand the laws and culture of today between men and women and available labor in the workplace won't have a problem hiring a woman. It will especially hit them when they can't find qualified employees and face lawsuits if they turn someone down for just being a woman. Also there are large companies like Walmart, Amazon, etc driving changes in the work place and companies that don't want to play ball won't have business with them. Big corporations can drive change way faster than government.

 

[Ivan in Mich]

It is great of what you are doing. Keep helping her to do what she wants. I think the Air Force has so excellent progams and she may fit right in. It seems today many people have the attitude that why do it myself I can just hire it done. I was a 4 H leader for many years and I had on boy that was mentaly handicapped. I knew his dad and he asked about his son coming into the woodworking class. I had no problems with that but wanted to know how to treat him. His answer was just like the rest of the group. This young man was a joy to be around and when his dad did small engines, I never saw someone take an engine apart and put it back together as fast as he did. He still works on farm equitment with hias dad

 

[JF in MI]

You are correct and we encourage joining the armed forces.

 

[Charlie M]

If the male supervisor was applying that standard to everyone and documenting it then there is no issue. The problem with many people in management today is they are too stupid to manage people. You can buy all the new equipment you want and can all be automated but there is still at least one person that makes it all work. If you manage that person right it will work, if you don't you won't be in business long.

 

[M-MAN]

I think it's a tricky situation. I wouldn't be comfortable training and working that close with a female now a days. Too many jobs where there is no avoiding physical contact. I work with a very good female mechanic. Was not comfortable training her years ago and would not do it now in this political climate at all.

 

[Stroby]

It's a spooky world out there folks! YOU can do everything right.....and still get sued! Having said that, I'd encourage her to go after what EVER she wants.

 

[ss55]

My experience from working with women machinists, and engineers is: If she's talented and a reasonable person to work with, she will have no problem earning the respect of 99 percent of the people she will be working with.

I would not try to hold her back because of "what if?" gender fears.

 

[David G]

What you hear about on TV is .000000001 % of the working people, so probability of an issue is small.

I also think the military would provide her top notch training, both technical and leadership wise, AF or Navy would be my top picks.

 

[oldsarge]

usta be I'd a agreed with you,not anymore (and I had 28 years active duty)

 

[Mike(NEOhio)]

The last third of my working years brought me in contact with quite a few female workers. Technical, factory and engineering. As with men, some were useless, most fairly competent and some were real talents. Personally, I had no problem with them and most of the guys were respectful toward them. But I made sure I never said anything the least bit out of line.

 

[300jk]

I am a member of the international union of operating engineers. That just means I run heavy equipment and belong to the union. I work for a large company that does heavy highway construction. Employs 150- 200 guys depending on the season. Laborers, operators, carpenters, electricians, and mechanics. There are a good bunch of women employed by the company. All are top notch at what they do, work right along with all the men and can hold their own. They are not thought of as "less of a worker" or anything else. If this young lady does her job well she will have no problem. I would encourage her and say go for it !

 

[Bret4207]

(quoted from post at 16:36:25 02/07/19) I sincerely hope you're right but I'm not talking about men who harass, I'm talking about those who don't or wouldn't think of it but get accused anyway. I once was in the uncomfortable position of being a witness (against revenge) where a male supervisor was explaining to a female employee that her spending more time texting on her phone than working was the reason she was getting a minimal raise that year.

I think I had that girls sister working for me on Okinawa in 1982. She spent the vast majority of her time the first 2 days in the warehouse taking "a smoke break". Things were different back then and calling a spade a spade was not just normal, it was expected of any Marine NCO. She turned on the tears and started screaming and then the Gunny came out to see what was going on and cut her to the bone in good old fashioned USMC fashion. At least she shut up then. She never did amount to anything while in my shop.

 

[UAFitter]

This is absolutely correct.

 

[rrlund]

As far as not knowing tools,best to know the weaknesses on day one so you know what you're working with.

The hiring woman thing,I guess I have some bias what with working side by side with my wife for 40 years. I've been doing business with implement dealers and auto parts stores who have had women working the parts counter even longer than I've been married.


What else can a person say? The followers of the chief executive say "everybody does it". I trust myself,if somebody doesn't trust themselves,then they'd better trust their predatory instincts and stay away from women I guess.

 

[steve706]

I?ve beean aircraft mechanic for decades and have worked with quite a few female mechanics and have even had women as directors of maintenance and PRM?s. Times have changed and in aviation a woman has the exact same chance of advancing as any man, it comes down to licenses, endorsements, and plain old experience. Over the years I?ve taught apprentices both male and female and their gender never played a factor even once. The best sheet metal mechanic I know is a woman who can repair skin damage better than anyone I?ve ever come across, she?s a professional and acts as one.
There is absolutely no reason she cannot attend college and enter the field, aviation is not the same as working for a car dealership, there are regulations for absolutely everything included in the MPM. I have yet to come across a single male mechanic who wouldn?t work with a female because he was concerned about accusations and other bs, it?s a non starter. If she is good, she will succeed, if not, she?ll stay a line mechanic, life is like that.

 

[Indiana Ken]

Companies reluctant to hire females...really? I spent 27 years in aerospace and there were females in engineering, test lab, assembly & test, model shop etc. For the most part the females were very capable and well respected. In addition, for the most part males were very capable and well respected as well. In 1986 assembly & test was moved to North Carolina. That plant is still there and I would estimate approximately 30% of the employees are female.

I would encourage her, mechanic, technician or otherwise - I think it would offer a good future. She should be reading books on how airplanes fly, how the controls work etc. Maybe you could arrange a tour for her at a local airport or manufacturer of aerospace parts.

 

[Billy Shafer]

I was a battalion motor sergeant in the army. I was assigned a new female into the section. I asked her what she wanted to do. She said she wanted to be a mechanic and to prove herself. So I issued her all the equipment she needed and told her she had two weeks to prove herself. She turned out to be the best mechanic I had. Wasn't afraid to get dirty and would tackle any job. I had very little returns on her work.

Couple of guys complained about her. But I told them when they can do better than her. Let me know. I received a call from a garage in her town asking about her. I told him he would be a fool not to hire her. Last time I heard from him. She was running the shop and customer's were very with her.

 

[CenTex Farmall]

I worked in aviation too; worked on them some when I was learning to fly and then with a commercial ticket moved on to only breaking them instead of fixing them!

I have to agree with Steve706. Aviation is different environment to work in; highly regulated and highly monitored. Airlines fall all over themselves to hire women and minorities and they hire good ones as you have to be good to make it through various levels required for certification, whether wrenching or flying. I've worked side by side with women and frankly there are aspects where they tend to show an advantage over their male counterparts. They tend to stick more to established procedures and show proper levels of caution.

I would say "go for it" and help the young lady out as much as you can.

 

[JF in MI]

This is what I was hoping to hear. In the limited contact I've had I think she has what it takes and I always had the intention to encourage her pursuing it. Her parents have the right attitude (father is a diesel mechanic) which I believe helps a lot. I believe she is being singled out for some scholarship grants from us so far . I was just worried about the "company politics" situation in the coming decades.

 

[Butch.]

Love the last sentence. Funny
I suggested making up tool box of extra tools that I have for my oldest daughter's boyfriend.
My younger daughter said what do you want him to do hurt himself???

 

[ASEguy]

I teach Automotive Technology. I have both a high school and a college class. I have males and females in both. I'm aware of what can happen, but I don't dwell on it. I see to it that all are given even chances and equal access to learning. All of our college students are hired out and the industry wants more due to shortages. One of the females in my program is doing so well where she works and at school that I nominated her for a non-traditional scholarship which will help quite a bit with her finances. I also agree that some of my students have problems identifying and using tools, but that is why they are there. I won't hold someone back that wants to learn but doesn't know much about automotive. I learned years ago to assume they know nothing. I have to teach them what nuts and bolts are then go up to on the car lathes and scope usage. I teach them and let them go as far as they can go.

 

[WGM]

I graduated from Purdue in 1971 with an AAS degree in aviation technology. Went on to get a bs degree in industrial management from Purdue also. Then got into the sheet metal apprenticeship through Sheetmetal Workers Local 303, now Local 20. Went on from there to become a foremen, project manager and a senior project manager and a part owner of the company I worked for. Retired from the same company after 44 years service. The total of union pension, company profit sharing and 401K got me more money than when I was working. Never did use the aviation technology degree nor the FAA A&P license that went with it.

 

[C.Amick]

Too much time is spent playing video games and not learning how to do anything. I afraid my youngest son is in this group.

 

[wisbaker]

as others have said Military, if she can get into the Air Force in a aircraft maintenance AFSC she'll get the training, The Air Force has a Community College so military training can be applied to a College degree. If she wants to go further than a 2 year degree there are programs that will subsidize her Bachelor's degree while on active duty. If she can score high enough on the tests and in school there is a possibility to choose what air frame you or base you get assigned to, a good choice will/can control the number of deployments or overseas tours.

 

[Cliff Nelson]

If she has the talent, she will do well. Local farm girl here went into the military and learned mechanics and computer/gps related fields. After leaving the military, she went to Deere Tech. Local dealer wouldn't sponser her but she found a dealer 60 miles away that would. She worked there several years then moved to a dealer several hours away to be closer to her sister and got a job with a dealer there where she was one of the best techs they had. Now she works as a traveling trainer for a defense contractor and travels the world on company time. Give your girl all the opportunities you can if you see the talent in her. True talent is not gender based.

 

[Sprint 6]

I would steer her toward a career with better pay potential. Aircraft maintenance is a shockingly low paying field for the tools and liability involved. My BIL did aircraft maintenance after his stint in the Air Force. He found out it didn't pay enough to pay his tool bill, let alone anything else.

Being an auto mechanic has been good to me, but I run my own shop. That being said, I would never steer my kids toward auto mechanics. There is no money in that field as an employee. The flat rate pay system is extremely corrupt and the tools are way too expensive now for it to be a wise choice.

I would steer kids toward HVAC and electrical contracting work. Steady pay, and lower tool costs.

 

[JF in MI]

Funny you should say that. I was an auto mechanic 'employee' for 26 years. Didn't particularly like it but the pay was just fine. It allowed me to pay off my mortgage a decade early and start saving for a second home. I got out of the business, took a pay cut, and got into engineering with a huge company and really enjoyed that. The one thing I forgot, however, was that if you're even half way good (I'm not saying "a great mechanic") there is no such thing as unemployment. I went through three recessions as a mechanic and only got busier during them. First recession after that and the engineering departments were the first to be cut. Never worked again after that.

 

[Bruce(OR)]

I have set back and read this in passing for some time now. I did a stint in the military as an acft mech. I started to pursue it in the civilian world and an instructor at the A&P school gave me the low down. Local employment is great, as long as your working in a city with a large hub. Atlanta comes to mind. Cheap air fares are a result of cheap maintenance. You work on a bird, You sign off on the log. If the bird falls out of the air, you could find yourself unemployed for 6 months plus while the accident is investigated and you are cleared. If not cleared, you could wind up in the pokey.
If you have a flight license, it is not wise to advertise that on the application. Most small shop owners frown upon you being certified to fly around a customers plane until you have worked in the shop for awhile. THEN you can say that you have a license to fly the birds. That sounded silly to me to start with, but it is what he said regarding be able to fly the birds as a new employee.
Going into auto mechanics is what I did and there are a lot, >>a lot<< of shops that are flat rate and do not pay worth a spit.
The current big bucks is not automotive. Diesel driveability is real good money.
I believe a 4 year degree in diesel power generation(?) is hella big bucks starting out the door.
Wanna work on planes? That's OK.
Get the 4 year degree is Diesel, get the high paying job, buy a house with a barn on a private airstrip, Build your own plane and enjoy the 'ell out of life.

 

[Sprint 6]

The problem with working as an employee in auto repair now, versus then is the flat rate pay system and lack of maintenence on newer cars. You used to be able to make good money on flat rate years ago when people maintained their investment. Couple that with the fact that into the 80's, the mechanic made half the shop labor rate. That was a recipe for good money.

Today, modern cars are usually driven until they drop. But the owner still owes money on a now worthless car, so they trade and roll the negative equity in on the new car. The dealer can't afford to fix the trade and have any margin, so it is sold at wholesale auction for whatever it brings, the rest is written off as a loss on the dealership taxes. Notice that the mechanic is cut completely out of that picture? The other issue with modern cars is, even if the owner does want to maintain it, nothing outside of an air filter, cabin filter, and wiper blades are needed until the vehicle passes the 100K mile mark. I routinely put the first brakes on 3/4 ton trucks at 100K or more. Plugs, 100K, tires, 60-80K, batteries, 8-10 years. See the picture? Couple the lack of service opportunities with only being paid 20% of the $150+ an hour door rate = not making squat for your education and tool investment. Doesn't matter if you get paid $30 an hour flat rate if there are no hours to turn, 0 hours = $0. I knew it was time to get out when I actually owed money to cover my insurance one week.

Also, woe be to the person who is actually very good at what they do. The person who fixes the problem children, or does the time consuming diesel and auto transmission work. This is the category I fit into during my dues paying years. Sure, I had the highest pay per flat rate hour in the shop. But management just keeps you on the bench until you are needed, stifling your pay. I would spend my day watching the gravy be doled out, then when the money loosing electrical gremlin that only happens once a year on the third full moon during a rainstorm on a mountain comes in, that's when I would get called to pick up my ticket. Low hours turned = low pay check. I finally had to start my own shop to make the money I was capable of. It is hectic, but satisfying. The amount of refugees I see from dealers is sickening, the pay structure has run most of the talent in this field off.