Fergienewbee
Well-known Member
All the talk about welders on another post of mine got me thinking. It might be time I learned. What kind of power do I need for an outlet? Do I need 220?
Larry
Larry
Zachary Hoyt
Well-known Member
For the older ones like I have you seem to need a 220V 50A outlet and the wiring to power it. Wire has gotten so expensive nowadays that it can really put a damper on my plans, at least for long runs.
Zach
Zach
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
I have a lincoln 220v 225 amp buzz box. At the time I wired it with I had, 10g wire and a 30 amp breaker. I do most of my welding with 75 or 90 amp setting. Rarely do I ever use the 105 amp range.
There are some who say I goofed. Well I wired this 6 years ago, burned many rods and NEVER HAVE I HAD AN ISSUE. Guess you could say I'm a CODE BREAKER.
If you are going to put out money for new wire, put in a 50 amp service. I now have some left over 8 guage wire and a 50 amp breaker, so it's no biggie for me to change it, I just never have.
George
There are some who say I goofed. Well I wired this 6 years ago, burned many rods and NEVER HAVE I HAD AN ISSUE. Guess you could say I'm a CODE BREAKER.
If you are going to put out money for new wire, put in a 50 amp service. I now have some left over 8 guage wire and a 50 amp breaker, so it's no biggie for me to change it, I just never have.
George
Stan in Oly, WA
Well-known Member
Larry,
For practical purposes, you need 220. The least expensive way to get good equipment is to buy a used Lincoln buzz box (stick welder) on Craigslist. Prices vary in different parts of the country, of course, but here in Olympia, WA I can pick up an AC only Lincoln within 50 miles for around $100 just about any time. Last week someone was selling a Lincoln AC/DC buzz box for $150 not far from me, but that price comes up only a few times a year. Generally the AC/DC model in good shape will sell for $300 to $400.
If you have to do extensive wiring to get 220 power to the location where you want to use the welder, it might make more sense to buy a 110 volt welder. A 110 MIG welder can be quite handy for very light work, but it involves the additional cost of shielding gas, or the use of expensive (and smoky/dirty) flux core wire. 110 volt stick welders are essentially worthless unless they are inverter rather than transformer welders. Inverter welders are either quite expensive or they are Chinese made. Chinese welders are not necessarily bad, but they introduce a different set of potential problems (you can Google more information than you could ever read concerning people's experiences with, or opinions of, Chinese welders).
The very best way to learn welding is to take a welding class before you buy anything. For instance, here in Olympia you can take a 10 week introductory welding and metal working class at the community college through the Continuing Education Program for $120. That comes to $4 per hour, and at the end of it you will have learned the basics of oxy/acetylene welding (and torch cutting), stick welding, MIG welding, plasma cutting, forge use, and have the use of some industrial quality metal working tools. The only down side that I can think of is that after taking the class, you'll want to spend a lot more on welding equipment than if you had just bought yourself a used buzz box and tried to teach yourself to use it (which is surprisingly difficult, by the way).
Stan
For practical purposes, you need 220. The least expensive way to get good equipment is to buy a used Lincoln buzz box (stick welder) on Craigslist. Prices vary in different parts of the country, of course, but here in Olympia, WA I can pick up an AC only Lincoln within 50 miles for around $100 just about any time. Last week someone was selling a Lincoln AC/DC buzz box for $150 not far from me, but that price comes up only a few times a year. Generally the AC/DC model in good shape will sell for $300 to $400.
If you have to do extensive wiring to get 220 power to the location where you want to use the welder, it might make more sense to buy a 110 volt welder. A 110 MIG welder can be quite handy for very light work, but it involves the additional cost of shielding gas, or the use of expensive (and smoky/dirty) flux core wire. 110 volt stick welders are essentially worthless unless they are inverter rather than transformer welders. Inverter welders are either quite expensive or they are Chinese made. Chinese welders are not necessarily bad, but they introduce a different set of potential problems (you can Google more information than you could ever read concerning people's experiences with, or opinions of, Chinese welders).
The very best way to learn welding is to take a welding class before you buy anything. For instance, here in Olympia you can take a 10 week introductory welding and metal working class at the community college through the Continuing Education Program for $120. That comes to $4 per hour, and at the end of it you will have learned the basics of oxy/acetylene welding (and torch cutting), stick welding, MIG welding, plasma cutting, forge use, and have the use of some industrial quality metal working tools. The only down side that I can think of is that after taking the class, you'll want to spend a lot more on welding equipment than if you had just bought yourself a used buzz box and tried to teach yourself to use it (which is surprisingly difficult, by the way).
Stan
Well George, my brand new Hobart AC/DC welder came with an AWG 12 power cord. It's plugged into a 50 amp circuit that I put in years ago for my old welder. The weak link in my system is obviously not the 50 amp breaker.
For the original poster - I agree with Stan in Washington. If you add up the cost of the rods you burn in that Jr College welding class, it'll come to more than the cost of the class. It's a bargain! You'll learn more there, quicker, and you'll know the right way to fix things when you're done, plus you'll have a level of confidence that you won't get from trial and error at home by yourself. Good luck! I couldn't function here without a welder.
For the original poster - I agree with Stan in Washington. If you add up the cost of the rods you burn in that Jr College welding class, it'll come to more than the cost of the class. It's a bargain! You'll learn more there, quicker, and you'll know the right way to fix things when you're done, plus you'll have a level of confidence that you won't get from trial and error at home by yourself. Good luck! I couldn't function here without a welder.
Stan in Oly, WA
Well-known Member
George,
I don't think 8 gauge wire is code for a 50 amp breaker. I think it requires 6. Even with the code exception that is made for welders (which I'm not clear on, anyway) I might be uneasy having wire that was technically too light for the size of the breaker inside my walls. Before I got an inverter welder that is adequate for most purposes using a 12 gauge extension cord on a 110 volt, 20 amp breaker, I used to use a 50' 8 gauge extension cord to run a buzz box on a 50 amp breaker. I never had a bit of trouble with it, but if I had it would have been the extension cord which was the weak link, not the house wiring. I used to be more of a risk taker than I am now (counting on an excessive margin of safety built into many situations to give me some wiggle room). Now I'm less inclined to take risks, even when I don't believe they are actually very risky. It probably has to do with not having as much time to recover if things go wrong as I did 25 years ago.
Stan
I don't think 8 gauge wire is code for a 50 amp breaker. I think it requires 6. Even with the code exception that is made for welders (which I'm not clear on, anyway) I might be uneasy having wire that was technically too light for the size of the breaker inside my walls. Before I got an inverter welder that is adequate for most purposes using a 12 gauge extension cord on a 110 volt, 20 amp breaker, I used to use a 50' 8 gauge extension cord to run a buzz box on a 50 amp breaker. I never had a bit of trouble with it, but if I had it would have been the extension cord which was the weak link, not the house wiring. I used to be more of a risk taker than I am now (counting on an excessive margin of safety built into many situations to give me some wiggle room). Now I'm less inclined to take risks, even when I don't believe they are actually very risky. It probably has to do with not having as much time to recover if things go wrong as I did 25 years ago.
Stan
"What kind of power do I need for an outlet?"
The CORRECT answer is it depends on the voltage and current of the welder.
"Do I need 220?"
The CORRECT answer is it depends on at what voltage (and phase) the welder is designed to operate. (Yes Billy Bob, many were 240 single phase while some smaller units only required 120)
That being said, many (NOT all) typical old Lincoln etc. AC Buzz Box Welders were designed to operate at 240 volts and often (NOT always) were wired using 50 amp rated 240 volt 2 Pole 3 Wire GroundING Outlets.
Id take a look see what Plug (if so equipped) is on a particular welder as that gives you at least some information you need to know.
If it has a 2 pole 3 wire 240 volt 50 amp rated GroundING plug, then Id wire up a matching 240 volt 2 pole 3 wire 50 amp GroundING receptacle. From that receptacle to a Panelboard, say within 25 to 50 feet or so away, I would run three 6 Gauge conductors, Two Hot UnGrounded 240 volt phase conductors (Black & Red) plus a Bare/Green Equipment GroundING Conductor.
That circuit is protected using a two pole 240 volt 50 amp circuit breaker inside the panelboard with the two Hot UnGrounDED Conductors (Red & Black) connected to the breaker terminals and the Equipment GroundING Conductor connected to the panels Equipment Ground Buss (where the bare and green ground wires attach).
NOTE this is for a straight pure 240 volt ONLY welder that doesn"t also require 120 volts.
NOTE again, it depends on the voltage and current requirements of a particular welder, the above is for many typical old Lincoln etc AC Buzz Box Welders but may NOT be correct for your welder.
John T Long retired Electrical Engineer and rusty on the latest codes and no info on your welder SO NO WARRANTY. This may or may not be right or wrong and I"m NOT saying if it is or it isn"t..........
The CORRECT answer is it depends on the voltage and current of the welder.
"Do I need 220?"
The CORRECT answer is it depends on at what voltage (and phase) the welder is designed to operate. (Yes Billy Bob, many were 240 single phase while some smaller units only required 120)
That being said, many (NOT all) typical old Lincoln etc. AC Buzz Box Welders were designed to operate at 240 volts and often (NOT always) were wired using 50 amp rated 240 volt 2 Pole 3 Wire GroundING Outlets.
Id take a look see what Plug (if so equipped) is on a particular welder as that gives you at least some information you need to know.
If it has a 2 pole 3 wire 240 volt 50 amp rated GroundING plug, then Id wire up a matching 240 volt 2 pole 3 wire 50 amp GroundING receptacle. From that receptacle to a Panelboard, say within 25 to 50 feet or so away, I would run three 6 Gauge conductors, Two Hot UnGrounded 240 volt phase conductors (Black & Red) plus a Bare/Green Equipment GroundING Conductor.
That circuit is protected using a two pole 240 volt 50 amp circuit breaker inside the panelboard with the two Hot UnGrounDED Conductors (Red & Black) connected to the breaker terminals and the Equipment GroundING Conductor connected to the panels Equipment Ground Buss (where the bare and green ground wires attach).
NOTE this is for a straight pure 240 volt ONLY welder that doesn"t also require 120 volts.
NOTE again, it depends on the voltage and current requirements of a particular welder, the above is for many typical old Lincoln etc AC Buzz Box Welders but may NOT be correct for your welder.
John T Long retired Electrical Engineer and rusty on the latest codes and no info on your welder SO NO WARRANTY. This may or may not be right or wrong and I"m NOT saying if it is or it isn"t..........
I have a red (now faded to rusty pink) Lincoln AC stick welder that I got almost 50 years ago. At the time I lived in town and the only 220 receptacle in the place was where the drier was. It was close to the carport so there was no need for an extension cord. I used it there for a few years without incident or problems that I knew of. There was a 30 amp breaker to that circuit. After moving out on where I live now, 37 years ago, I rigged up a plug on the light pole where my electric meter is to start with. I later built a shop with 200 amp service to it. I still have the old welder and a place to use it occasionally when I don't have much to do and don't want to start my gasoline powered welder. It's running through a 30 amp breaker with 8 gauge wire going about four feet to the plug. I have the original power cord from the welder which I believe to be 10 gauge about six feet long with a 10 gauge extension cord that's about ten feet long.
I know this is long and wordy, but I just wanted to say if there were ever a problem I didn't know about it, the old welder still works great, had to replace the cooling fan in it and relabel the front where the sun had faded it out. Other than that there have been no issues or repairs. I think the highest I ever turned it to was about 105 or maybe the next setting so I never really asked it to do more than it was designed to do.
I know this is long and wordy, but I just wanted to say if there were ever a problem I didn't know about it, the old welder still works great, had to replace the cooling fan in it and relabel the front where the sun had faded it out. Other than that there have been no issues or repairs. I think the highest I ever turned it to was about 105 or maybe the next setting so I never really asked it to do more than it was designed to do.
Stan in Oly, WA
Well-known Member
My feeling about the Lincoln 225 amp buzz box is that if you baby it, it will last just about forever, and if you abuse it, it will also last just about forever.
If I'm a Code guy now, it's mainly by default. Partly I've decided it's not worthwhile to take chances when the advantage and the disadvantage are equally small; partly it's because of the unexpected number of times I've been forced to admit, "Gee, I didn't think of that" when something has gone wrong that I absolutely didn't believe could go wrong.
If I'm a Code guy now, it's mainly by default. Partly I've decided it's not worthwhile to take chances when the advantage and the disadvantage are equally small; partly it's because of the unexpected number of times I've been forced to admit, "Gee, I didn't think of that" when something has gone wrong that I absolutely didn't believe could go wrong.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Most non-commercial 240 volt welders expect a 50 amp circuit, but if you have an existing 30 or 40 amp circuit you might be able to get by without upgrading; just expect to pop the circuit breaker at higher settings.
The plugs on welders have three contacts: two hots and a ground. There is no neutral. 6-2 Romex is appropriate for 50 amp welder circuits.
The plugs on welders have three contacts: two hots and a ground. There is no neutral. 6-2 Romex is appropriate for 50 amp welder circuits.
You need to look at the duty cycle of the welder.
I think most of those old welders the duty cycle is 20%.
If I remember right those welders do/did have a #10 cord on them.
NEC table 630.31(A)(2) This was 2002, but I don't think it's changed, it hasn't in the past 40 years.
At a 20% duty cycle multiply name plate rating by 0.45.
60 x 0.45 =27 So a welder with a 60 amp name plate rating and 20% duty cycle can be wired with a #10 wire and fused at 30 amps.
If welder is quite a ways away from the breaker/fuse panel it would be a good to run #8 wire.
I got my IBEW 45 year pin last night.
Dusty
You won't regret it - opens your world up once you don't have to rely on others to do your welding.
Best to get an electrician in to do it right - but either way - while wiring up the plug - also give some thought to swapping out the plug wire to the welder itself with an extra long, heavy duty cable while you're at it.
That's what we did, and it's been very nice to be able to move the welder around to wherever it's needed.
Best to get an electrician in to do it right - but either way - while wiring up the plug - also give some thought to swapping out the plug wire to the welder itself with an extra long, heavy duty cable while you're at it.
That's what we did, and it's been very nice to be able to move the welder around to wherever it's needed.
dr sportster
Well-known Member
Wow 45 years congratulations ,brother. I got 25 last year.I hope you are a pensioned member and not still climbing ladders like me. LOl.
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