What number hay rake is this?

[Hunt4ihhayrakeid]

what model number rake is this?
Is it a international harvester? It is a four-bar enclosed gearbox type.

I want to know so I can hopefully find a manual for it and also possibly find a replacement chain that goes from the gearbox to the four bar rotary seen below...

I also wish I could find out whether or not this had rubber tires on it where they are just steel wheels now, it's odd to me that it has steel wheels up front and rubber wheels in the back?
I found one listed for sale in New Zealand,(of all places) that looks identical but it has rubber on the large spoke wheels. This website will not let me upload that picture yet because it sees it as spam I guess...

This post was edited by Hunt4ihhayrakeid on 06/09/2021 at 10:54 am.

 

[old]

I cannot tell you what model it is but I have parts and piece of 2 of them. Both had the engagement gear break on them

 

[Leroy]

No model number. Just called a 4 bar enclosed gear rake. And I don't remember size chane but easy to get. I have rebuilt many of them for the Amish. Fact is I bought parts off of Old and those rakes he mentioned. Very few were sold with rubber tires on either front or back as they were designed as a horse drawn rake so slow speed was required. I had all the books on them but think I sold them to an Amish machinery dealer for use in his bussiness.

 

[Hunt4ihhayrakeid]

Okay so what age would this rake be from that has rubber rear tires that look factory? Now I just need to know how slow to go in my Allis Chalmers be pulling it that compares to a horse speed pulling it?

 

[old]

I us to pull the one I had with a Farmall B and 1st gear was really faster then it should have been being pulled and might be why the gear broke in half

 

[Hunt4ihhayrakeid]

(quoted from post at 16:53:18 06/09/21) No model number. Just called a 4 bar enclosed gear rake. And I don't remember size chane but easy to get. I have rebuilt many of them for the Amish. Fact is I bought parts off of Old and those rakes he mentioned. Very few were sold with rubber tires on either front or back as they were designed as a horse drawn rake so slow speed was required. I had all the books on them but think I sold them to an Amish machinery dealer for use in his bussiness.

So I'm wondering with large spoked steel wheels or what it looks like that up front with rubber wheels in the back is it possible that this rake had rubber wheels on the front at one time and has just been let go to steel?
I just read another post where you went into much detail about different model numbers and it sounds like this might be a number four? It has four bars...

 

[old]

The ones I have where rubber tired machines. 4X36 where the tire size. Back in the 80s one tire would cost $400 to replace.

 

[caterpillar guy]

We have several of those old steel wheeled rakes and we always pulled them with any tractor open when needed. Usually pulled them with the H or MD in 4th gear for decades. Some were Deere and one IH never had a problem because of speed and all on steel wheels. The one in the pictures probably got the steel when they choked on the price tag to replace the tires. Might have had them on another rake they stole them off from. The tires of the steel tire looks a bit wide for rake wheels too.
As for your chain it is fine the sprocket teeth are worn and will still last as long as you will want to use it if you oil the chain each day. Grease the wheels and axle shaft along with the cam for the rake bars and there should be one on each bracket for each bar. The swivel also greases on the back wheels. 80/90 in the gear case or a bit heavier if it leaks. Could even mix some 80/90 with some gun grease for it and use. or Cornhead grease. We've done all of that for ours. Yup still use one of the 4or 5 of them once in awhile.

 

[Hunt4ihhayrakeid]

(quoted from post at 03:31:07 06/10/21) We have several of those old steel wheeled rakes and we always pulled them with any tractor open when needed. Usually pulled them with the H or MD in 4th gear for decades. Some were Deere and one IH never had a problem because of speed and all on steel wheels. The one in the pictures probably got the steel when they choked on the price tag to replace the tires. Might have had them on another rake they stole them off from. The tires of the steel tire looks a bit wide for rake wheels too.
As for your chain it is fine the sprocket teeth are worn and will still last as long as you will want to use it if you oil the chain each day. Grease the wheels and axle shaft along with the cam for the rake bars and there should be one on each bracket for each bar. The swivel also greases on the back wheels. 80/90 in the gear case or a bit heavier if it leaks. Could even mix some 80/90 with some gun grease for it and use. or Cornhead grease. We've done all of that for ours. Yup still use one of the 4or 5 of them once in awhile.

That's interesting you say 4th gear!!! ( Everyone else says it's a model built to be drawn with horses only- super slow?!?)
Shouldn't say everyone, one guy told me he'd bet my Allis Chalmers model b would pull it in 3 Rd gear, I'll be happy with second gear!!!

 

[Leroy]

They were designed to be operated at a fast walk but can be safly operated at about twice that speed. Doing so will speed the real too fast to make a proper winrow. And also make faster ware plus bight break things. They were avaible from beginning about 1938 or 39, don't have the book now that gave years made to 1948 when last one was built. Do not take much power to operate so can use a higher gear in tractor at a slow engine RPM. I did not see the rims close enough to see how the front wheels were made but the rims for rubber tires were a drop center type of rim and took a very special tire or 4 x 36 and are very hard to find and very expencive when you can find them. Only place that might have them is Miller Tire in Ohio. At times when tires were shot they were just removed and rake was run without tires on front. The back tires were 4:00 x 12 and a lot of boat trailer tires were close enough in size that they could be used. 4:80x12 being the size. The front steel were of a round shape with the center higher than the outside with like spoke nubes sticking thru rim for traction and without them the wheels would just slide with a heay raking load. Steel was standard with the rubber an option. But at the time they were built a lot of the raking tractors still had steel wheels so no need for rubber on the rake. And most never left the farm so no road travel as farms were not spread out over distance. The ends of back end os tine bars did like to wear out and also the center bearing location as well. The bearings will also wear out if not properly greased. I have repaired many of those tine bars using bars from other scraped rakes or bars that had those bearing spots dammaged. If they are bad at thoe spots bars from about any rake of that style will work to repair them. Will not go into detail now on how to do that unless you end up having to repair them. Some Massey rakes are verry simular and before I new better I even put a complete Massey real in a McCormick rake. The teeth will only werk on that rake and no other rake teeth will work. Thhet may be hard for yoy to find. (I nought all Old had) but I can easly get new teeth, I worked for years with Amish rebuilding those and JD AND NI rakes also Case and MM so I know them about by hart but have not done it now for a few years. That rake does not have the reversing gear in the gear box for tedding like the 3 bar McCormick had that was all open gears. Any questions I can probably answer.

 

[Leroy]

Just broght up the picture and I misspoke about shape of rims, That is way JD and NI rims were made, McCormick used a concave type of rim instead of a rim shaped like part of a piece of pipe. But those are orignally settl rim wheels on front. They were interchangeable from rubber to steel. Then the steel was avaible with about a 2.5 wide rim or a 4 wide rim for muck ground conditions.

 

[Hunt4ihhayrakeid]

(quoted from post at 07:26:26 06/10/21) Just broght up the picture and I misspoke about shape of rims, That is way JD and NI rims were made, McCormick used a concave type of rim instead of a rim shaped like part of a piece of pipe. But those are orignally settl rim wheels on front. They were interchangeable from rubber to steel. Then the steel was avaible with about a 2.5 wide rim or a 4 wide rim for muck ground conditions.

Interesting you say Miller tire because I just bought two new rear tires for the same rake with tubes from them. There's nothing really wrong with the large spoke rims in the front but like you say not real great with traction the way they're designed at least the way I can see... I recently bought a couple books on these rakes off eBay so I'll see if they help me with identification (not that it really matters at this point because it's not like you can buy all the parts to fix these!)
I do need some new teeth for this tho!!! (Do you know what length and type they are so I can order some?)

I bet these rims are the 4-in wide muck version then, owner I bought from was original owner of it and he said it is all original. It is odd how they are not rounded down to the ground like a regular tire that is rubber, they are reversed concave shaped so probably would help on soft ground?
I've got to get my Allis Chalmers be out and hook it up to it and see how it acts in the next couple days before I cut field so I know what to expect when raking somewhat...
What is the hand crank on the enclosed gearbox side pretty much directly above that for? It seems to be pretty frozen up but for the most part every single grease fitting took grease so that's a good sign!

Thanks Matt

This post was edited by Hunt4ihhayrakeid on 06/10/2021 at 08:17 am.

 

[Hunt4ihhayrakeid]

(quoted from post at 07:26:26 06/10/21) Just broght up the picture and I misspoke about shape of rims, That is way JD and NI rims were made, McCormick used a concave type of rim instead of a rim shaped like part of a piece of pipe. But those are orignally settl rim wheels on front. They were interchangeable from rubber to steel. Then the steel was avaible with about a 2.5 wide rim or a 4 wide rim for muck ground conditions.

I can't really figure out why there would be grease fittings inside of the part that says remove cover to add oil? There are two grease fittings in the pictures I added? The only thing I could figure is that at one point the seals on the side got worn out and it was going through too much oil like in leaking it so the owner just drilled and tapped those gears for putting in grease fittings?

 

[Hunt4ihhayrakeid]

(quoted from post at 07:19:08 06/10/21) They were designed to be operated at a fast walk but can be safly operated at about twice that speed. Doing so will speed the real too fast to make a proper winrow. And also make faster ware plus bight break things. They were avaible from beginning about 1938 or 39, don't have the book now that gave years made to 1948 when last one was built. Do not take much power to operate so can use a higher gear in tractor at a slow engine RPM. I did not see the rims close enough to see how the front wheels were made but the rims for rubber tires were a drop center type of rim and took a very special tire or 4 x 36 and are very hard to find and very expencive when you can find them. Only place that might have them is Miller Tire in Ohio. At times when tires were shot they were just removed and rake was run without tires on front. The back tires were 4:00 x 12 and a lot of boat trailer tires were close enough in size that they could be used. 4:80x12 being the size. The front steel were of a round shape with the center higher than the outside with like spoke nubes sticking thru rim for traction and without them the wheels would just slide with a heay raking load. Steel was standard with the rubber an option. But at the time they were built a lot of the raking tractors still had steel wheels so no need for rubber on the rake. And most never left the farm so no road travel as farms were not spread out over distance. The ends of back end os tine bars did like to wear out and also the center bearing location as well. The bearings will also wear out if not properly greased. I have repaired many of those tine bars using bars from other scraped rakes or bars that had those bearing spots dammaged. If they are bad at thoe spots bars from about any rake of that style will work to repair them. Will not go into detail now on how to do that unless you end up having to repair them. Some Massey rakes are verry simular and before I new better I even put a complete Massey real in a McCormick rake. The teeth will only werk on that rake and no other rake teeth will work. Thhet may be hard for yoy to find. (I nought all Old had) but I can easly get new teeth, I worked for years with Amish rebuilding those and JD AND NI rakes also Case and MM so I know them about by hart but have not done it now for a few years. That rake does not have the reversing gear in the gear box for tedding like the 3 bar McCormick had that was all open gears. Any questions I can probably answer.

Wow thanks for the detailed information, just what I'm looking for! Do you know when running one of these behind a tractor like the Allis Chalmers B would it be best to pull at what speed (I know you said a fast walk speed) I have the tractor data speeds for each gear for my tractor so I'm trying to figure out ahead of time what the best speed is? Also do you know what the best setting is for the upper rear adjustment and front? Are they supposed to be set equally level or higher in front to back or vice versa?

 

[Leroy]

Set the teeth about 1 of the ground, too low and teeth will behitting ground and breaking. higher may not pick up corectly. The crank tilts the angle of the tith and you want them tilted toward the hay slightly because the other way the teeth will slide over the hay. I grew up with a New Idea of that vintage and pulled it with a Farmal H or John Deere B 4th at slightly above idle, The 2N Ford it was higher engine RPM as it was missing the gear it should have had for raking. Am now just about 78 and not in good health and living in town but untill about 3 years ago I was rebuilding those rakes for the Amish. Over the time I have handled over 60 steel wheel hay rakes rebuilding most of them, I can only think of 3 that did not have to have work done to them. I not only worked with the rakes but grain drill, corn planters, mowers and other implements. Living in town I cannot even work on my truck. I do not know the gearing in AC tractors but knowing that tractor should be a 3 speed with 3rd a road speed second would be light field work speed.

 

[Leroy]

Factory placed grease fittings as the grease in the gear case is not high enough up to lube those spots but will lube the gears inside the case. No seal on the shafts so filling high enough to lube those spots the grease would all run out around the shaft. Don't remember for shure how many fittings but thing there are more than you found, but some might be on outside, just do not remember.

 

[Hunt4ihhayrakeid]

(quoted from post at 10:26:34 06/10/21) Set the teeth about 1 of the ground, too low and teeth will behitting ground and breaking. higher may not pick up corectly. The crank tilts the angle of the tith and you want them tilted toward the hay slightly because the other way the teeth will slide over the hay. I grew up with a New Idea of that vintage and pulled it with a Farmal H or John Deere B 4th at slightly above idle, The 2N Ford it was higher engine RPM as it was missing the gear it should have had for raking. Am now just about 78 and not in good health and living in town but untill about 3 years ago I was rebuilding those rakes for the Amish. Over the time I have handled over 60 steel wheel hay rakes rebuilding most of them, I can only think of 3 that did not have to have work done to them. I not only worked with the rakes but grain drill, corn planters, mowers and other
implements. Living in town I cannot even work on my truck. I do not know the gearing in AC tractors but knowing that tractor should be a 3 speed with 3rd a road speed second would be light field work speed.

Here is tractor data for the model B that I will be using to pull this rake. What gear and throttle would you go with knowing the speeds it can do I'm assuming at wide open throttle is what these specs are for...(2.5 mph -I'm guessing all those speeds are wide open throttle?)

Also how fast would you run a trailer type sickle mower in 3 ft tall orchard grass? Here are the specs for the model CA I will be using to pull the sickle mower...(2.0 mph)
Thanks much for the rake setup info, should I need to adjust the left hand crank above enclosed gear.box?

 

[Farmallb]

Im pretty sure its a #50 chain. Neighbor had one

 

[Hunt4ihhayrakeid]

(quoted from post at 10:32:11 06/10/21) Factory placed grease fittings as the grease in the gear case is not high enough up to lube those spots but will lube the gears inside the case. No seal on the shafts so filling high enough to lube those spots the grease would all run out around the shaft. Don't remember for shure how many fittings but thing there are more than you found, but some might be on outside, just do not remember.

So should I just fill with grade so it won't splash out around shaft?

 

[Leroy]

I would just fill to bottom of shaft with the 90 wt. and grease the fittings with gun grease. But the fittings inside gear box grease once a year unless you are doing hundreds of acres per year that I dought. And this is not covered in the 8 page owners manual. That crank if teeth are not set where you want will have to use heat to get it to turn. Other fittings probably 1 or 2 pumps of grease gun per fitting depending on when you see grease comming out of bearing.

 

[Hunt4ihhayrakeid]

(quoted from post at 12:59:31 06/11/21) I would just fill to bottom of shaft with the 90 wt. and grease the fittings with gun grease. But the fittings inside gear box grease once a year unless you are doing hundreds of acres per year that I dought. And this is not covered in the 8 page owners manual. That crank if teeth are not set where you want will have to use heat to get it to turn. Other fittings probably 1 or 2 pumps of grease gun per fitting depending on when you see grease comming out of bearing.

Gotcha when we were unloading it off the trailer it was tilted to one side and it looked like there was water running out of the gearbox but it looks like it was greased and oiled, I'm wondering if there's a drain plug on the bottom I should empty it first. I've got some 80 90 gear oil I'm going to put in it like you say. Cutting hay hopefully tomorrow with my trailer type sickle mower behind my Allis Chalmers d17, just about 3 acres

So I did look and there was a drain plug on the bottom luckily I pulled it out because there was water in it mixed in with some gunky looking oil, filled it like you said to the bottom of the shaft and greased everything else.


This post was edited by Hunt4ihhayrakeid on 06/11/2021 at 08:06 pm.

 

[SadFarmall]

Correct chain is Number 72.
The gears have grease nipples because the earlier versions, with tedding capability had basically the same gears, which did not run in an enclosed case. The same type of rake was sold in Australia as a GL-100 Side Delivery Rake, but had a lower axle and 6.00-16 tyres.
Lubrication is SAE 140 in the enclosed gear box. They have a drain plug. If the rake is outside, the gearbox always gets water in it.
You have to grease the two gears inside the gearbox regularly or there will be excessive wear to the shaft and gears.
There were different sprockets available to alter reel speed, so the rake could be operated with horse, tractors or oxen.
Pictures of:
Lubrication page for GL-100 rake - same as yours except for the chain from the 600-16 wheel to gearbox.
Different speed sprockets
Open gears on Side Rake and Tedder version

SadFarmall

 

[SadFarmall]

Sorry, correct chain is Number 72 & 1/2 not 72.

 

[Leroy]

Hay Sad how are you doing, haven'y heard from you for quite a while.

 

[SadFarmall]

Hi Leroy,
keeping busy - farm work never ends!
I was thinking more about the enclosed gear rake. I think that the oil only lubricates the driving and driven teeth on the gears as it is picked up by the gears in the lower half of the gearbox. If you fill the gearbox above the bottom of the shafts, the oil seeps out - at least it does on the GL-100 rakes, so probably the same on big front wheel version?
The 16" front wheels on the GL-100 are not a great design, because the low front axle can drag heavy hay forward before the reel gets to the crop.
SadFarmall