White 2-70 Carb icing up

[JWinIndiana]

My White (I bought this last September so this is the first winter) 2-70 carb is icing up. Yesterday it was 39 degrees F. Iced up to the point it caused me to have to pull the choke all the way open to keep it running. Was moving feed auger carts around, moved a couple round bales to feeders and then took garbage can to the road. Shut it down and the block heat thawed the carb, but then coming back from putting out a bale it froze up and barely got it backed under the lean to roof. Looking for some tips to prevent this. At this point this tractor couldn't even plow my driveway.

 

[DanielW]

Oliver made a kit back in the day for the 1600/1650 series of tractor because cab icing was a common problem. I don't recall the details, but John will probably remember. Pretty sure the 2-70 and 1650/1655 all used the same M/S TSX carb (and the 1655 has the same engine), so I wouldn't be surprised if that issue carried through to the 2-70. We probably just don't hear about it as much, because there are so few gas 2-70's out there.

Most of the time when carb icing is discussed on here folks start with just throwing a little alcohol-containing gas line antifreeze in the tank and that (somehow) solves it in most cases. I always had a hard time believing it, because carb icing is the water vapour in the air freezing, not water in the fuel. But a lot of smart people swear it helps, so I guess I have to believe them. Maybe there's enough alcohol/antifreeze sucked up with the fuel that it mixes with the water vapour in the air and lowers the freezing point. Someone smarter than me might know.

The rest of the time when carb icing is discussed on here, folks talk about making some sort of a shroud to direct manifold heat around the carb. See this link for some talk about what was done to solve icing on a 1655: https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/threads/1655-carburator-issue.1300381/

 

[rrlund]

Oliver made a kit back in the day for the 1600/1650 series of tractor because cab icing was a common problem. I don't recall the details, but John will probably remember. Pretty sure the 2-70 and 1650/1655 all used the same M/S TSX carb (and the 1655 has the same engine), so I wouldn't be surprised if that issue carried through to the 2-70. We probably just don't hear about it as much, because there are so few gas 2-70's out there.

Most of the time when carb icing is discussed on here folks start with just throwing a little alcohol-containing gas line antifreeze in the tank and that (somehow) solves it in most cases. I always had a hard time believing it, because carb icing is the water vapour in the air freezing, not water in the fuel. But a lot of smart people swear it helps, so I guess I have to believe them. Maybe there's enough alcohol/antifreeze sucked up with the fuel that it mixes with the water vapour in the air and lowers the freezing point. Someone smarter than me might know.

The rest of the time when carb icing is discussed on here, folks talk about making some sort of a shroud to direct manifold heat around the carb. See this link for some talk about what was done to solve icing on a 1655: https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/threads/1655-carburator-issue.1300381/

I'm thinking that kit was a steel tube with a T that went in place of the breather tube from the carb to the air cleaner and it pulled some heat from the manifold.

 

[J. Schwiebert]

Oliver made a kit back in the day for the 1600/1650 series of tractor because cab icing was a common problem. I don't recall the details, but John will probably remember. Pretty sure the 2-70 and 1650/1655 all used the same M/S TSX carb (and the 1655 has the same engine), so I wouldn't be surprised if that issue carried through to the 2-70. We probably just don't hear about it as much, because there are so few gas 2-70's out there.

Most of the time when carb icing is discussed on here folks start with just throwing a little alcohol-containing gas line antifreeze in the tank and that (somehow) solves it in most cases. I always had a hard time believing it, because carb icing is the water vapour in the air freezing, not water in the fuel. But a lot of smart people swear it helps, so I guess I have to believe them. Maybe there's enough alcohol/antifreeze sucked up with the fuel that it mixes with the water vapour in the air and lowers the freezing point. Someone smarter than me might know.

The rest of the time when carb icing is discussed on here, folks talk about making some sort of a shroud to direct manifold heat around the carb. See this link for some talk about what was done to solve icing on a 1655: https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/threads/1655-carburator-issue.1300381/

 

[J. Schwiebert]

Oh boy that was a problem when the 1600 tractor were new when they were owned by farmers that had livestock. Oliver did have this kit to supply warm air to the carburetor. I will need to think back a little bit more. Those guys that had those problems are now all dead!

 

[JWinIndiana]

I have my 1650 Oliver backed into a shed waiting for me to pull the engine to fix a leak at the hydra power which I kept in one position and lived with the dribble until it developed a large leak (dumping all hydraulic fluid within 100 yards) from under the floor board. But it never iced so have no idea and this 2-70 was bought to replace the Oliver while it was down. Never had a heat houser and can't seem to find one for sale but have heard that helps.

 

[DanielW]

Reading your original post again, I'm a little surprised it froze up so fast just moving a bale around and backing into a lean-to. This sort of weather (just above freezing with lots of moisture/humidity) is conducive to freezing, but even still: It usually takes a little longer to happen, and usually at higher loads or when it's rev'd up - drawing a lot of air at a high volume through the venturi. Are you sure it's freezing-up, and not a partially-restricted fuel flow that's allowing it to fill the bowl and run for a while but slowly starve itself out? It's a common problem with these older tractors that have gunk in the tank that starts to dislodge, and it would cause the same symptoms you're seeing there. Maybe pop the drain plug out of the carb and watch the flow out of it for at least 30 seconds - you want a good, healthy stream, not a light trickle.

 

[JWinIndiana]

Reading your original post again, I'm a little surprised it froze up so fast just moving a bale around and backing into a lean-to. This sort of weather (just above freezing with lots of moisture/humidity) is conducive to freezing, but even still: It usually takes a little longer to happen, and usually at higher loads or when it's rev'd up - drawing a lot of air at a high volume through the venturi. Are you sure it's freezing-up, and not a partially-restricted fuel flow that's allowing it to fill the bowl and run for a while but slowly starve itself out? It's a common problem with these older tractors that have gunk in the tank that starts to dislodge, and it would cause the same symptoms you're seeing there. Maybe pop the drain plug out of the carb and watch the flow out of it for at least 30 seconds - you want a good, healthy stream, not a light trickle.

I had moved a 1/2 full feed auger cart (knoedler) to another lean to, moved an empty feed auger cart in place to be filled by the feed truck later next week, moved a bale for the team of horses, moved a bale for a team of a mule and haflinger, moved a bale into the "pony" barn, pulled two wagons for firewood from the OWB to some logs we are cutting and splitting this weekend, then grabbed two trash cans to put out for the garbage man. So I spent about an hour or so with it. We built a retirement home for my parents on our farm and mom is still living so shut off the tractor when I got her trash can so I could visit for a few minutes, that is when it seemed to thaw and ran good going down the drive (1/8 of a mile) to put the trash cans out, coming back is when it really got to running rough and barely backed in under the lean to.

 

[rrlund]

I had moved a 1/2 full feed auger cart (knoedler) to another lean to, moved an empty feed auger cart in place to be filled by the feed truck later next week, moved a bale for the team of horses, moved a bale for a team of a mule and haflinger, moved a bale into the "pony" barn, pulled two wagons for firewood from the OWB to some logs we are cutting and splitting this weekend, then grabbed two trash cans to put out for the garbage man. So I spent about an hour or so with it. We built a retirement home for my parents on our farm and mom is still living so shut off the tractor when I got her trash can so I could visit for a few minutes, that is when it seemed to thaw and ran good going down the drive (1/8 of a mile) to put the trash cans out, coming back is when it really got to running rough and barely backed in under the lean to.

The more I think about it, didn't that kit have a T shaped pipe that replaced the air cleaner tube that came out through the top of the hood? I think the horizontal pipe on it had a square box that went around the exhaust pipe where it comes out of the manifold. Seems to me like there as a butterfly that you could open and close on it. Pulling it in above the air cleaner like that, the air still gets filtered before it gets to the carburetor.

 

[JWinIndiana]

I will check tonight and take a picture to post in the event I am missing what you are describing.

 

[DanielW]

The more I think about it, didn't that kit have a T shaped pipe that replaced the air cleaner tube that came out through the top of the hood? I think the horizontal pipe on it had a square box that went around the exhaust pipe where it comes out of the manifold. Seems to me like there as a butterfly that you could open and close on it. Pulling it in above the air cleaner like that, the air still gets filtered before it gets to the carburetor.

I think you're probably right. This picture (taken from another thread) shows someone built something just like that to draw heat from around the exhaust stack. Would be pretty easy to fabricate something like that.

 

[J.Wondergem]

I think you're probably right. This picture (taken from another thread) shows someone built something just like that to draw heat from around the exhaust stack. Would be pretty easy to fabricate something like that.

Now to me ,that makes since in that case.

 

[used red MN]

Do the old farmer fix. Feed sacks essentially blocking all of the air from getting through the radiator. Then sacks covering the side of the engine the carb is on from the fan to the past the carb. The blocked air flow through radiator will help it warm up the lesser amount of air that the fan pulls the through the radiator and blow it over the carb to warm it up. Just watch the temp gauge on warmer days the radiator sacks may need to be opened a bit on those days.

 

[rrlund]

I think you're probably right. This picture (taken from another thread) shows someone built something just like that to draw heat from around the exhaust stack. Would be pretty easy to fabricate something like that.

That might be about the only way you can do it. Those had a dry element air cleaner, the kit was made for an oil bath and had a different intake pipe.

 

[JWinIndiana]

Today's current temp per the pickup temp gauge.

I shut off the tractor and moved a pile of firewood by hand and remembered I had my phone so took a picture of the carb after probably 15 minutes. It did thaw and allowed me to back it in under the lean to roof. At this rate I won't be able to unload a load of feed with out shutting it off and letting the carb thaw.

The "curtains" I made cover the entire front of the radiator and around the corner and the entire side opening til past the carb.

So, tomorrow am going to NAPA and buy some HEET (in the yellow jugs) if I can find it, that is what my dad always carried at the station. If not, will grab whatever fuel anti freeze product my guy at my NAPA endorses. I am going to leave this as is and add the fuel anti freeze and then see what happens. Should my side curtain go across the entire side opening?

 

[used red MN]

Dinged by Denny’s Lol! Interesting, maybe you’re going to have to resort to fabricating and air stove like Dan is showing. I doubt the “juice” in the tank will cure anything, hope you prove me wrong. The humidity in the air is what is freezing and accumulating in the carb venturi or probably right above it. Last resort buy a diesel then you won’t have to worry she won’t start at all. Actually, engine heaters make them fairly dependable until the power goes out.

 

[DanielW]

Holy bananas! That's really freezing up. Some sort of steel shroud around the exhaust manifold and carb is the typical fix you'd see on tractors like the Allis WD and others that were prone to carb icing.

The carb in your pic seems to have a tag on the back from a tractor parts supplier. I wonder if it's a different M/S carb than the one it had originally. There are/were many different sizes of those TSX carbs with the same mounting pattern. Many of them had a slightly smaller throat, and many of those smaller ones were very common. Maybe someone's swapped carbs at some point with one that has a slightly smaller throat, creating more pressure drop across the venturi and thus more icing concerns. You could try putting the carb from your 1650 in the shop on there and see what happens. I think the 1650 and 2-70 had different stock carbs on them, but same engine, so it shouldn't be too out to lunch.

 

[wore out]

Holy bananas! That's really freezing up. Some sort of steel shroud around the exhaust manifold and carb is the typical fix you'd see on tractors like the Allis WD and others that were prone to carb icing.

The carb in your pic seems to have a tag on the back from a tractor parts supplier. I wonder if it's a different M/S carb than the one it had originally. There are/were many different sizes of those TSX carbs with the same mounting pattern. Many of them had a slightly smaller throat, and many of those smaller ones were very common. Maybe someone's swapped carbs at some point with one that has a slightly smaller throat, creating more pressure drop across the venturi and thus more icing concerns. You could try putting the carb from your 1650 in the shop on there and see what happens. I think the 1650 and 2-70 had different stock carbs on them, but same engine, so it shouldn't be too out to lunch.

"Holy bananas! That's really freezing up."

Maybe not so much!

That's a photo of the carb on my 4020 "Ingrid" after comfortably blowing snow at twenty below F.

The 4020 has a changeable "block" on the manifolds for winter or summer use and having the intake manifold HOT helps a lot.

There's two things that make the carb so darned cold, the venturi effect of the air stream speeding up to pass through the venturi, then slowing down in the larger cross-sectional area after the venturi has a cooling effect.

Also, when the fuel vaporizes at the transition from atmospheric pressure in the carb's air horn ahead of the venturi to depressed manifold pressure after it manifold it takes HEAT (latent heat of vaporization) to effect the phase change, further CHILLING the throat of the carb.

Using ethanol gasoline or adding gas line antifreeze will help, at least SOME with the freezing INSIDE the carb's throat that causes the problems the O.P. is having.

And, bundle up the engine to keep the carb as warm and comfy as possible.

 

[JWinIndiana]

Wore out, how the heck did that stay running????

So in bundling up the engine, I should extend the canvas curtain I made to cover the entire side as well as the other side of the engine.

 

[2SteveWI]

View attachment 4583

Today's current temp per the pickup temp gauge.

View attachment 4584


I shut off the tractor and moved a pile of firewood by hand and remembered I had my phone so took a picture of the carb after probably 15 minutes. It did thaw and allowed me to back it in under the lean to roof. At this rate I won't be able to unload a load of feed with out shutting it off and letting the carb thaw.

View attachment 4585


The "curtains" I made cover the entire front of the radiator and around the corner and the entire side opening til past the carb.

So, tomorrow am going to NAPA and buy some HEET (in the yellow jugs) if I can find it, that is what my dad always carried at the station. If not, will grab whatever fuel anti freeze product my guy at my NAPA endorses. I am going to leave this as is and add the fuel anti freeze and then see what happens. Should my side curtain go across the entire side opening?

Could your problem be related to the throttle shaft freezing. Worked on a 6600 gas john deere combine that was overrevving at end of field when combining corn in fall. Turned out the throttle shaft was freezing from running at full throttle and would break loose after a second. Lubed up shaft with WD40 or whatever had on truck at time and it worked fine. Steve.