wire brush vs. sandblasting

[redgems]

I am restoring farmall 400.have taken all small pieces to local pro blaster will apply etch primer to buy me time before paint.My problem is that I would rather wire brush rear end& tranny&engine. question ,will wire brush remove rust on cast, Will quality of paint job be as good as pieces that are blasted??.Any advice on procedures or products much appreciated. Tony

 

[Patsdeere]

I wire wheel most of the cast. It takes it off pretty darn good. Personally I would rather save the money and just do it myself.

Since the guy is sandblasting the metal, there is no need for an etching primer. Etching primer simply helps create a bond when the metal is smoother (i.e. when it is wire wheeled). Sand blasting really roughens up the surface to the point that etching primer isn't necessary.

 

[GlenIdaho]

I used wire wheels on an angle grinder and it stripped the old paint off great. Used them on from the trans to the rear end. Be sure to power wash it first so you are not dealing with grease and oil that can potentially cause problems with the paint. After paint removal was again with soap and water, rinse, dry and then use a good wax and grease remover like PPG DX330 or similar. The paint is with epoxy. The benefit of using epoxy is that it has excellent bonding characteristics, seals and helps to prevent rust and it's fairly tough. You will have to scuff it and reapply before top coating, but it's worth it.

 

[MNGB]

I too use paint stripper and wire wheels plus an abrasive wheel VS sandblasting I'm not at all a fan of sandblasting.
GB in MN

 

[CNKS]

Don't put etch primer on cast pieces, it can lift the paint later. As stated below etch is not necessary on sandblasted or wire wheeled metal. If you have to apply primer use epoxy, scuff and recoat before painting if outside the window. I don't do anything to bare metal, just let is sit -- it doesn't rust inside a decent building.

 

[circus]

Like comparing an atomic bomb to a candle. Sandblasting works best. Wire brushing is a joke.

 

[Ford Red]

A wire brush will not completely remove all the rust, dirt, or contamination from a rough surface. It will look good, but it won't be completely bare metal.

 

[CNKS]

If you do a good job of wire brushing, and clean the cast good after brushing, you will never know the difference, if any, in quality of the paint job, particularly if you use epoxy primer. Sand blasting is faster (major advantage), and gets in the nooks and crannies better, that's about it. You have to be very careful when blasting. I use a combination of both.

 

[Jason(Ma)]

I myself use both wire wheels and sandblasting, it just depends on what the piece is I"m working. i.e. wheels = sandblast, complete engine = wire wheel (don"t want sand getting inside) I will also use either piclex (sp) or Must for rust to buy me sometime before I get everything ready for epoxy prime.

 

[Stuart]

Sandblasting will give you about 15-20% more surface area. It will make the primer so much better than if you just wire brushed it. Dont listen to people who tell you not to use etch primer on bare metal.It makes the primer stick so much better, and it only lifts the paint if you dont know what your doing. Etch primer stops the spread of rust if the paint job is scratched down to bare metal.Epoxy wont do that. We sandblasted our gooseneck trailer 25 years ago and used etch primer and sealer and it still looks good. My BIL owns his own body shop for almost 40 years and thats what he uses on bare metal..The reason I would sandblast a whole tractor is that if any sand gets inside it can wreck havoc. I usually use oven cleaner and a steam cleaner. I do sandblast smaller parts that I can take off the tractor

 

[Rod (NH)]

PPG's two etch primers in their premium Deltron automotive line are [b:654c4848f0][i:654c4848f0]Not Recommended[/i:654c4848f0][/b:654c4848f0] by the manufacturer for use on media blasted steel. See <a href="https://buyat.ppg.com/refinishProductCatalog/ServeFile.ashx?FileID=46c5e07e-cdd7-4936-a804-a642d74727ca">DPX171</a> and <a href="https://buyat.ppg.com/refinishProductCatalog/ServeFile.ashx?FileID=3eb49638-6033-4495-a484-0d52e2f8d9c1">DX1791</a>. Should PPG not be listened to regarding use of their own products? People should always obtain the appropriate written technical data sheets from the manufacturer for each product they are considering for the best usage information.

 

[CNKS]

A lot of answers on this forum are based on personal opinion and/or experience. On this subject you have your opinion and I have mine. I have heard that etch can lift paint. It seems logical to me because cast is pourous, and the stuff can (may or may not) get trapped in the pores. The chances that it won't lift paint are likely greater than the chances that it will, I'm not willing to find out. Too much work involved to prepare and paint cast than to take the chance. On other than new unprepared sheet metal it likely won't hurt anything, but I see no advantage to it. On new sheet metal etch has an advantage that the new metal does not have to be sanded. No reflection on your BIL, but many very experienced body shops use certain products because that is what they have always done. If it works, why change? I'm not about to take a damaged vehicle to a body shop and tell the owner how to do it -- he would be justified in saying where he would like me to go. But, like your BIL I can say what works for me on my own tractors.

 

[Stuart]

Well hes being doing it for decades with no problems. have you?

 

[Stuart]

Thank you for not starting a big pissing match like some people on here do. My BIL and I actually tested bare metal with etch and bare metal with epoxy. The epoxy rusted out faster. We did this on my car. I had the same argument that you did on this subject and he proved me wrong. But I agree with your post above

Now I have a question for you. My BIL painted my Dads Farmall H. Until this time he had not been impressed with any valspar product, but he tried some of their restoration series and he loved it.Then he painted over it with CIH 2150 and clearcoated only the sheet metal. The tractor looks immaculate, just beautiful. Well I am restoring my JD 60 and I was wondering if I should go with PPG etch primer and sealer and JD paint or valspar primer and JD paint and I am clearcoating the sheetmetal only. What is your opinion

 

[Rod (NH)]

I take it you are responding to my post? My point was that not all etch primers or all epoxies are the same. To make a general statement about "not listening" is irresponsible in my opinion. The fact that you or anyone else has used some undefined "etch primer" on sandblasted surfaces successfully in the past should not take precedence over a manufacturer's specific written recommendation against it for [i:654c4848f0][b:654c4848f0]their particular product[/b:654c4848f0][/i:654c4848f0]. I happen to believe that product manufacturers generally know best on how to use their own products, regardless of any personal experiences to the contrary. To answer your question though, I do not use etch primers at all and never have in over 40 years. To each his own though.

 

[CNKS]

I have not used 2150 except for touching up obscure places with a brush that I missed with acrylic urethane (of course that is not "correct"). 2150 used to be alkyd enamel. Several years ago the cans started saying "acrylic modified" alkyd enamel. Meaning some acrylic properties were added, notably UV protection since alkyd enamel is notorious for fading particularly when always outside. The quart can that I bought 5 years or so says only enamel. That aside, most people who use 2150 seem to like it. To my eyes it has an orange tint, some eyes see the tint others don't. There is likely some difference between batches. If you are clearcoating the sheet metal it should be ok. I have never gotten an answer whether or not JD paint is a straight alkyd or modified, the clear should take care of that, although I don't like using clear over "cheap" paint. I would much rather spend the money on acrylic urethane. Omni or Nason versions will cost about $100/gallon more than 2150, and I assume the JD equivalent. The PPG spec sheets for the paint I use says it works over their etch. I cannot tell you whether another brand etch will work under either JD or CaseIH paint -- that is for you to find out. I use only PPG products because I am familiar with them and they work for me, just as your BIL is familiar with what he does. I am sure that Valspar makes about everything, and that they have etch, probably not readily available. SO, I have not answered your question. As far as etch vs epoxy vs rust vs bare metal vs anything else, where I live I don't have any problem with rust. Once I am done it does not exist. Valspar Restoration Series? Read the fine print and find out what the stuff is--it may be an acrylic modified alkyd, it may be advertising. To me the most important thing in selecting paint is to know what the paint is and why you are using a that particular paint. one advantage of the high dollar paints are that the instuctions are detailed, followed exactly, if something goes wrong it is not the paints fault. The JD, IH and tractor store paints speak in general terms.

 

[Retro80]

I sandblasted anything I could take off the tractor and thought I could remove all the sand from. I wire wheeled the frame and engine, ext. I sprayed a rust converter and the primed

 

[Stuart]

How long have you been professionally painting? Have you owned and operated a body shop for 30 years. If you havent and your just a weekend warrior who paints a few tractors now and again, then I have a hard time taking advice from someone like you

 

[CNKS]

You don't know Rod, you should not criticize people you do not know. With very few exceptions, Rod has forgotten more than most on this forum know. He is a hobby painter with years of experience. He likely knows more than you. You thanked me for not starting a -- contest, now you are doing it. I learned what to use to paint by email correspondence with an experienced person who answered all my questions, about 8 years ago before this forum existed. Everything he told me worked. Several months or so later, this forum showed up, Rod was one of the main posters. Everything Rod said was IDENTICAL to what the other person previously told me. When you get two people on the same page, same paragraph, same words, that do not know each other, it is very liklely that they are correct. The first thing is painting is for the person to find out how to do things correctly, the second is to gain experience. For my purposes I know the first one. I am still short on the second. Also, what you seem to be forgetting, is that there is more than one way to do things. You want to use etch, fine, just don't present it as the only way.

 

[Rod (NH)]

You didn't ask for any advice in this thread and I haven't given you any. I simply responded to your blanket "don't listen to people" statement by indicating that not every manufacturer recommmends their etch primer for media-blasted steel surfaces. I also provided links to written PPG instructions specifically recommending against it for two of PPG's premium etch primers. If you read those PPG tech sheets and believe you know more than they do concerning their own products, then you have an issue with PPG and not with me. You may wish to take your credentials challenge up with them. It serves no useful purpose for readers here.

 

[Stuart]

And yet you did not answer the question