WorkBull 202 Front Axle

[Gord William]

Hi all, Ive followed this site for some time but never joined but I just joined the other day. I have several older tractors and thought I may enjoy some posting and hopefully help the odd time as well as receive help the odd time.
1941 Farmall, not running ( is actually my late father-in-laws).
I own a 1954 Ferguson TEA tractor with a Howard gear reduction
A 1955 Massey Ferguson TO35 with a trip bucket loader.
My latest tractor is a 1963-64 Massey Ferguson 202 Workbull with a Massey Ferguson 200 loader and Massey Ferguson 220 backhoe.
As we all are, I tend to be a bit busy in many different directions at once but hopefully I can spend some time here. Oh, Im located in Canada a couple hours from Toronto Ontario.
Gord

 

[Gord William]

Guess I got rambling on about nothing in my post and forgot to ask my MF 202 Workbull front axle question.
The tractor runs but needs a little or a lot of work, I will find out soon enough I guess. Anyway long story short, is the front axle weldable cast steel? I will probably have to do some repairs to the front axle hub that the pivot pin goes through. Any input would be appreciated.
Thankd
Gord

 

[brooktre]

I don't know what material they are made of, but here is a thread that says there were differences in the later models. No mention of what a "later" model is, but the parts books show a change at serial number 307424.

https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=mf&th=179996

 

[Gord William]

Thanks for your reply. As you can see by the attached pictures there
was some cutting and grinding before I bought the tractor. Looks like
the tapered locking bolt has been cut off and someone was maybe
trying to cut the hub off the front of the casting. Or maybe that hub
was taken off another axle and tack welded in place. I cant really tell
at this point but it looks like they were having a bit of a time trying to
do what ever it was they were trying to do. Looks like the eventually
gave up as I can see the pivot pin is only cut about 1/4 the way
through. Something has moved and nothing seems to be centred on
the axle bore. I with probably cut the pivot pin out to remove the axle
and go from there. The drive shaft is also binding: seized up.
The axle may even be out of a different tractor, it has a 3/8 plate
welded on the front that the hub ( the part that is all cut up) is tack
welded to. Maybe they used a different axle and cut the hub off the
old axle?

 

[Gord William]

Photos of front axle.

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 10:16:21 03/18/21)
Photos of front axle.

Not always, but in most cases new users have to have 5 or more posts on record before the site lets them post pictures, due to site spam filters. Another option is to go down to the Site Comments Forum and ask YT Support for permission to post prior to that. You can try going down to the Test Forum and making several posts there to get your post count up, trying to attach your pictures to each post. That may work after you make several posts. Then make your post here again. It may not work immediately after you get past the 5 posts, if not, you might try logging out and back in at that point. There is a size limit as well, I think it is a total of 7.5mb per post (be it one picture or the total of several). Some pictures (often taken with phones), are too large and have to be reduced before they will post.

 

[Gord William]

Thanks for letting me know about the pictures, makes sense about
the spam. I was convinced I did something wrong trying to post
pictures. I will try again tonight on my computer. Thanks.
Gord

 

[Gord William]

Here are a couple pictures of the axle. Once I remove the axle completely and get it cleaned up and degreased hopefully I'll be able to tell if the
hub was cut off and tack welded back on or if it's a different model axle with a hub for the bushing tack welded on. Something isn't looking right.
I can see the axle has a 5/16 or 3/8 thick plate welded to the front that the bushing hub is welded to. Does the Workbull 202 axle have that plate
or is that axle out of another model? The only serial number is on the engine.Thanks, Gord

 

[Gord William]

You're right about the 5-emails, Thanks Jim.ME
Here is the pump mount also.

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 22:55:16 03/20/21) You're right about the 5-emails, Thanks Jim.ME
Here is the pump mount also.
<img src=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto82310.jpg>

The tag you posted is the engine ID tag, not the tractor serial number tag. At least some of the 202 tags were right on the left side of the dash beside the gauges. The Loader and hoe should each have their own tags as well.

Do you have the parts book? If not are you aware of the AGCO parts books on line?

 

[Gord William]

I have no serial plate on my dash, I have an engine serial plate only,
which when I contacted Montes Equipment Co., Inc. I was told the
engine was built in Nov. 1963 and it was sent to MF Dec 19 1963. So
I assume the tractor is a 1963 or more likely a 1964, ( if its the
original engine). I do have serial plates on the loader and backhoe
that both say Massey Ferguson but I never tried to look those
numbers up as I thought those attachments could have been added
at anytime. I guess I should look them up and see if they match the
year of the engine.
I have tractor, loader, and backhoe manuals off line for parts and
service of the 202 and the loader and backhoe. I bought them and
downloaded them from farm manuals fastonline. Maybe there are
better manuals, I dont know. They state these are copies of original
manuals.
Where do I download the AGCO manuals? Theyre not free are they?
Thanks, Gord

 

[Jim.ME]

I have not used the site you mention for manuals but have seen a number of people who posted as getting manuals there and the result was satisfactory. The manuals on the AGCO publications site are not free. You can use the parts books on line for free. Even if you don't purchase books from the AGCO site you can see what they say are the right publication numbers, which you can look for when searching other sources. This link will take you to the parts book site and there is a link to AGCOpubs there as well.

https://apb.agcocorp.com/

You may need to use the browse search for your machine, the industrial side of things doesn't always come up in the model search.. Select browse, then Massey Ferguson, parts books. The backhoes are in Grounds Care Equipment, loaders in Material Handling and the tractor will be under Industrial in the Tractors section.

HTH
Jim

 

[Gord William]

Thanks very much for the information on the manualS. I will take a
look.
Gord

 

[mecheng87]

Gord, to me that looks like the original axle. And it looks like it is a fabricated steel item not a steel or iron casting. Im guessing they were trying to pull the pivot pin and maybe got in over their heads and started cutting things

 

[Gord William]

Yes it does look original and it does look like fabricated steel tube.
But everything I have read about on line says the axle was cast steel.
The plate that is welded to the front looks like mild steel.
Have you ever seen a 202 Workbull with a plate welded to the front
like that? I have seen a 2135 I believe with an axle like mine but not
a 202. (Not that I have much experience with a 202). Guess it ok
doesnt really matter as I will be repairing it regardless of whether its
needs welded or machined. I think Im now more curious as to the
material and wether its original or not. Yes I agree, they were trying
to take it apart and either they werent sure how or the pivot pin lock
was frozen. I may have to finish cutting it apart and then machine
new parts or modify the existing parts. I had thought I may be able to
buy another axle but I doubt that will be easy or cheap. Thanks for
your reply, much appreciated. Gord

 

[Caryc]

Sorry, I can't really help you with your problem. But I see you have joined the club. Why are so many 202's missing that serial number on the dash? It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Gord William]

Ya, not sure why they are missing serial plates. I dont even see
where any rivet holes are on my dash of my 202, probably filled with
paint. I also have a TO35 but it has its serial plate (1955 year) but I
do see there are fair number of 35s online without serial plates too. I
have a Ferguson TEA 20 (1954 year) that has a serial plate also but
again I do see online a fair number without. I guess theyre pretty
easy to remove or are in such a location that over the years they get
knocked off and never put back. Probably at the time it wasnt at the
top of the list of things to do when there was work that needed to be
done using the tractor. Interesting observation youve made!
Oh ya , my wife has a 1941 Farmall ( her father passed away ), it
doesnt have a plate anymore either.
I sold off a Ford 8N (Year 1947-48)without a plate either. It does
seem that about 1/2 of the old tractors that Ive had any dealings with
dont have serial plates anymore. All the best.
Gord

 

[Caryc]

(quoted from post at 09:29:58 03/22/21) Ya, not sure why they are missing serial plates. I dont even see
where any rivet holes are on my dash of my 202, probably filled with
paint. I also have a TO35 but it has its serial plate (1955 year) but I
do see there are fair number of 35s online without serial plates too. I
have a Ferguson TEA 20 (1954 year) that has a serial plate also but
again I do see online a fair number without. I guess theyre pretty
easy to remove or are in such a location that over the years they get
knocked off and never put back. Probably at the time it wasnt at the
top of the list of things to do when there was work that needed to be
done using the tractor. Interesting observation youve made!
Oh ya , my wife has a 1941 Farmall ( her father passed away ), it
doesnt have a plate anymore either.
I sold off a Ford 8N (Year 1947-48)without a plate either. It does
seem that about 1/2 of the old tractors that Ive had any dealings with
dont have serial plates anymore. All the best.
Gord

Thanks for the reply. At least I was able to date my engine to 1958 the same way you did. When buying parts though, that's when you need an actual tractor serial number to get the correct part.

 

[Gord William]

Your right the exact tractor serial plate would be a big help. My
thought is if my engine isnt original then my tractor may not be a
1963-64 model. The flange that my hydraulic pump mounts to (
picture is in my posts) looks like a flange that I read was only on a
1958 model 202 tractor but maybe Im wrong too. Does your pump
mount flange look the same as mine? And does your axle look the
same as mine? Ive been wondering if my tractor may be a mix of
different years and maybe even different industrial models. Gord

 

[brooktre]

You probably already know this, but the pump shaft is a left handed thread. I had a tool made to remove mine (a bolt with a slot cut in to accept the woodruff key). The attached picture shows what my pump shaft looks like (closest to the middle one). On mine, the shaft and coupler are basically one piece - as I recall they are basically welded together.

The Agco Parts Books on the web also have a 99 Davis Loader that has many similar parts to different loaders used on the 202 (you can find it by searching for book number 651054). The attached picture is from that parts book.

 

[mecheng87]

Gord, I cannot say for sure but I dont doubt that the doubler plate welded to the front is part of the original axle. It looks from the picture like a factory production weld look and has original paint on it except where the previous owner got the torches out. You say that the pump drive shaft is binding it looks in the picture that the end that engages with the pump is split at the key slot or am I seeing it wrong? I notice on Kijiji that there is a MF 202 for sale in Hamilton and another guy looking for a MF 202 parts tractor in Peterborough maybe they would be willing to take some pictures for you?
Did the previous owners remove the nut from the end that pulls the taper shaft down to lock the axle to the pivot?

 

[Gord William]

Thanks for the drawings. Mine looks closer to the centre drawing as
well. Yes I knew about the left hand thread but thanks for the
reminder. I believe my drive shaft is seized in the bore but hopefully I
can get the shaft to thread out. Im going to be removing the entire
axle and pivot mount to replace the pivot pin and bushings and to
repair / replace the Pivot pin lock hub so if I cant get it apart in place
I will get it apart once I remove the entire assembly. I probably have
other work to do to the axle is well once its disassembled. My loader
is a 200.
Gord

 

[Gord William]

Your right about the axle and welded plate being original, now the
question is, is it original to the tractor. I ask this question because I
found a picture in a parts manual with the exact same axle assembly
as mine and its in a 2135 MF Industrial. I cant find a Workbull 202
picture or drawing of the same axle assembly. Did they have the
same axle or was my axle replaced with a 2135 axle? Or is my
tractor actually a 2135 and not a 202, maybe thats a possibility.
How many owners ago the tapered lock pin was cut I have no idea,
as I bought it this way. It doesnt really matter as I knew it was like
that when I bought it as the rad was out of the tractor when I looked
at it. The fellow I bought it from was very upfront about what he knew
about the tractor. My understanding is the fellow that I bought it from
replaced the hydraulic pump and drive shaft as the pump was leaking
and the shaft was rubbing on the bore. He replaced the shaft with a
shaft that he was told was for this tractor but the shaft coupling area
was square cornered instead of tapered. He said it ran a few
minutes then stalled the tractor with a squeal and froze the shaft
inside the bushing. The tractor runs if the round flange/plate is
disconnected from the engine though. So, worst case I remove the
entire axle assembly so I can get at it. I wonder if the lock hub
assembly with the taper pin has moved as it looks like it was tack
welded in place. We will see in the next week or so when I find time
to take it apart. Thanks for your post.
Gord

 

[mecheng87]

Gord I checked the AGCO parts books that were recommended to you earlier in this thread. The 2135 came with 2 different axles depending on the serial number and the 202 came with 3 different axles. One of the axles is same for both of these tractors so it is possible to see the identical axle on a 2135.
If the engine runs without the front pump installed, I think your problem is the front pump not the pump drive shaft

 

[Gord William]

Thanks for looking up the 202 and 2135 axle. That makes sense that
used it in the same tractor some years. No point in them reinventing
the wheel if they dont have to. The 202 came with a Z134 engine
and I believe the 2135 could also be purchased with Z134 engine.

The drive for the hydraulic pump was disconnected at the pulley (the
bolts are removed), so the engine would run. The pump is brand
new, ran 3 minutes he said and turns very easy by hand ( its not on
the tractor right now). The drive shaft that runs through the pivot pin
wont turn at all, but because its not connected to the crankshaft
pulley the tractor will run. Sorry, I didnt explain that very well before. I
will be able to tell exactly whats wrong in a week or so once I get it
apart. Too many other irons in the fire right now. Lol. Gord

 

[ptfarmer]

It could be possible for the pump drive shaft to be siezed in the front axle pivot pin if either the pump dirveshaft is too big in diameter, or if the hole through the pivot pin is too small. If the front axle support it worn where it pivots, or if the pivot pin/ pivot bushings are worn out it could cause the pump drive shaft to rub.

Repairing the front axle support on my 2135

 

[Gord William]

Hi, once I get it apart I will be able to determine exactly whats wrong.
At this point its only speculation on my part. They were perhaps, just
wanting to change the bushings but couldnt get it apart so started
cutting with a zip cut. Then Perhaps they gave up. It actually doesnt
much matter at this point, what ever is wrong with it I will fix.
How much did you have to bore out your axle support in the picture
to clean it up? I assume the pivot pin damaged the casting a bit? Or
are boring oversize to fit a larger OD bushing?
Thanks
Gord

 

[ptfarmer]

The pivot pin wore through the bushing, and into the axle support. I bored it just enough so it was round again then made a sleeve that acepted a new bushing. The front pivot pin bore was still good.

 

[Gord William]

Well, it looks like your fixing it properly so it should be good for another 50 years! These are great old tractors but they generally saw lots of hard work over many decades. Im sure some lubrication points were forgot about over the years.
Gord

 

[Gord William]

Finally found a bit of time to take the front axle apart. As you can see by the pictures, previous owners had started to zip cut the pivot pin
retaining clamp off. Then they tack welded it back on (I guess when they found out that taking it off was a mistake, I assume). Anyway the drive
shaft was seized inside the pivot pin (so that's the reason for the attempted grinding I guess).
I decided since the retaining clamp was only tack welded, I broke the tacks and cut the pivot pin in half being careful not to touch the drive
shaft. I then removed the axle from the support. The drive shaft is still stuck tight in the pivot pin so I may try and remove it by splitting
the pivot pin (as it's already scrap.)
As for the axle, I will line bore it to clean up the bores and make them round. My first thought is to then make a new stub shaft out of cold
rolled steel to go through the axle to replace the old stud shaft. I would make the OD that goes through the axle a size for size tap fit as it
eventually has to be welded in place. I can then go from there. It may possible to build up and machine down the old stub shaft too, but its in
pretty rough shape.
Does anyone know what the pivot pin is made out of? It seemed pretty hard when I faced it off. It machined like it was hardened steel.
I was hoping to make my own pin. Anyone here make there own pin? If so what did you use? I have stress-proof that I was thinking of using or
4140 and not heat treat it. Thanks, Gord

 

[brooktre]

This is why I cringe every time I remove my pump and look at the pump drive shaft set up. I tell myself that I really should do a thorough inspection, but end up putting it back together and getting back to lifting and digging.

Gord and PT keep up the good work and thank you for sharing.

 

[ptfarmer]

I made a pivot pin for mine out of 2"od x 1/2" wall DOM mild steel tubing, and it works just fine.

 

[Gord William]

I finally got the pivot pin pressed out of the lock pin hub. I put heat and 35 tons on the press until it popped. (I borrowed a 50 ton press),
Wow was it tight. It's been a long time since it took that much for me to move anything. I would never have guessed it would take that much. I
originally had started to machine the pin out but it's pretty hard, (probably rockwell 60 or something like that), because it chewed up a
carbide insert up at low speed before I called the machining quits and decided to borrow the press. I could machine it but it was very hard and
probably would have used up a couple inserts for sure. Now I have to weld up the lock pin hub where the previous previous owners cut it. I'll
press an Aluminum bar into it while I do that and also use the aluminum as an arbor to machine to OD true to the ID. Then I will sleeve the OD
of the lock pin hub for a nice tap fit through the axle then weld it up. Depending on if the welding distorts the bore I may have to clean up
the ID of the lock pin hub before fitting a new axle pivot pin.
You must have turned the OD of the pivot pin to 1 7/8 correct?
The photos I uploaded don't seem to be in any order, lol, computers don't come natural to me!

 

[ptfarmer]

I had to cut the pivot pin on mine out with a torch (20 tons with heat wouldn't do anything) so they do get really stuck. I did turn the od to 1 7/8", it still leaves a 7/16" thick wall which is still plenty strong. Like my brother who is a machinist said if you can break a 1 7/8" od with a 7/16" wall mild steel pin chances are you broke more than just that pin!

 

[Gord William]

I agree, something else is going to bust before that pivot pin. I think you would know long before the pivot pin broke as the hydraulic pump drive shaft would be jamming and there wouldn't be any hydraulics due to the pivot pin bending and binding the drive shaft. I don't plan on working the tractor that hard anyway. I will probably do something similar or the same as what you did with the pivot pin. I'm sure the old pin was original and has been in the tractor for 58 years so as long as I stop using the tractor before I'm 110 or 115 years old all should be good!