Yet Another 2cyl steering thread

[Dale3887]

So I’ve been going through a saga with my 630. Seals completely gave out on the pedestal so I finally had to tear it apart. Got everything back together. Still didn’t have great steering so went ahead and did bushings, seals and bearings in the pump. This is where I’m at now. (Copy paste from my Facebook post)

Ok. Officially at a loss on the steering for this 630. Been through and rebuilt the pedestal (all seals including vanes, and bushings). Rebuilt the pump. All new seals bearings and bushings. Filled halfway up the dipstick with Deere steering oil (AF2235R). First start was encouraging, I had one finger power steering. The longer it sat here the worse the steering got to the point that it’s basically manual steering now. Gauge shows 400psi at full lock. Flow control adjustment makes 0 difference in pressure (book says it should go up to 130psi when adjusted right) neither backing it all the way out nor running it in as far as possible make any change in the pressure reading.

The valve is as centered as I can get it. Although that’s basically pushed as far back toward the operator as it can go within its bolt holes and I just barely have left hand steering.

I set all of the backlash adjustments as close as I was able with my dial indicator. Worm end play is right on 4 thou. Helix width is as close as I can get it to 2 thou. The only adjustment I didn’t make was taking shims out between the worm and pedestal. It had 3 7 thou shims in it, so I put 3 new ones back. The wheel has nearly a quarter turn of free play in it, which is the same as it was before. I assume taking a shim out would help that, but I don’t foresee it helping the hydraulic side of things.

When I put the pedestal back together I honed the lower bushing to 2.502” like the manual says. I didn’t hone the top bushing. Again like the manual says. The pedestal went back together hard, but I attribute that to new parts and tight bushing tolerances that should wear in over time.

I did add one shim to the steering sector gear as it measured 27thou and spec was max 21, adding one shim brought it down as near as I could measure it to between 10 and 11 thou so it’s right where it should be.

I can check the cold pressure tomorrow once things cool off just to see what pressure is cold.

But I’ve run out of ideas. I set everything as close to spec as I could via the manual, but it seems like I’ve done nothing but make the steering worse. (Not that it was good to begin with).

Manual steering seems ok, it’s tough but equal in both directions so i dont think theres bind in the pedestal or shafts. I think it’s more likely just the new parts that havent worn in. I could be wrong though.

What am I missing?

It still seems pump related to me. But I guess I could be wrong. There was some wear on the fan shaft but not enough that it’s leaking oil or sucking air now that the seals have been replaced. Am I possibly doomed to taking the pump back out and either getting a rebuilt unit or having this one machined?

My only other guess is my helix width is still wrong. I set my dial indicator up like the book suggested and tried to get a reading but since this tractor has the longer steering support arm it’s difficult to move the actuating sleeve at all. I’d welcome any and all advice (or videos) on adjusting the helix width

 

[wore out]

So I’ve been going through a saga with my 630. Seals completely gave out on the pedestal so I finally had to tear it apart. Got everything back together. Still didn’t have great steering so went ahead and did bushings, seals and bearings in the pump. This is where I’m at now. (Copy paste from my Facebook post)

Ok. Officially at a loss on the steering for this 630. Been through and rebuilt the pedestal (all seals including vanes, and bushings). Rebuilt the pump. All new seals bearings and bushings. Filled halfway up the dipstick with Deere steering oil (AF2235R). First start was encouraging, I had one finger power steering. The longer it sat here the worse the steering got to the point that it’s basically manual steering now. Gauge shows 400psi at full lock. Flow control adjustment makes 0 difference in pressure (book says it should go up to 130psi when adjusted right) neither backing it all the way out nor running it in as far as possible make any change in the pressure reading.

The valve is as centered as I can get it. Although that’s basically pushed as far back toward the operator as it can go within its bolt holes and I just barely have left hand steering.

I set all of the backlash adjustments as close as I was able with my dial indicator. Worm end play is right on 4 thou. Helix width is as close as I can get it to 2 thou. The only adjustment I didn’t make was taking shims out between the worm and pedestal. It had 3 7 thou shims in it, so I put 3 new ones back. The wheel has nearly a quarter turn of free play in it, which is the same as it was before. I assume taking a shim out would help that, but I don’t foresee it helping the hydraulic side of things.

When I put the pedestal back together I honed the lower bushing to 2.502” like the manual says. I didn’t hone the top bushing. Again like the manual says. The pedestal went back together hard, but I attribute that to new parts and tight bushing tolerances that should wear in over time.

I did add one shim to the steering sector gear as it measured 27thou and spec was max 21, adding one shim brought it down as near as I could measure it to between 10 and 11 thou so it’s right where it should be.

I can check the cold pressure tomorrow once things cool off just to see what pressure is cold.

But I’ve run out of ideas. I set everything as close to spec as I could via the manual, but it seems like I’ve done nothing but make the steering worse. (Not that it was good to begin with).

Manual steering seems ok, it’s tough but equal in both directions so i dont think theres bind in the pedestal or shafts. I think it’s more likely just the new parts that havent worn in. I could be wrong though.

What am I missing?

It still seems pump related to me. But I guess I could be wrong. There was some wear on the fan shaft but not enough that it’s leaking oil or sucking air now that the seals have been replaced. Am I possibly doomed to taking the pump back out and either getting a rebuilt unit or having this one machined?

My only other guess is my helix width is still wrong. I set my dial indicator up like the book suggested and tried to get a reading but since this tractor has the longer steering support arm it’s difficult to move the actuating sleeve at all. I’d welcome any and all advice (or videos) on adjusting the helix width

It would be interesting to connect up a flowrater directly to the pump to check what flow and pressure it's capable of with it isolated from the rest of the system.

 

[Dale3887]

It would be interesting to connect up a flowrater directly to the pump to check what flow and pressure it's capable of with it isolated from the rest of the system.

Do you have a suggestion for one? Just out of curiosity.

What bugs me is even with Deere oil it gets significantly worse the warmer the oil gets

 

[Dale3887]

The two cyl club on facebook several have mentioned the valve assembly could still be the problem. I know Richard can rebuild them, but what can be done besides new springs and adjustment washers to the valve bodies "in house" without having to send it to somebody with specialized machining tools?

 

[wore out]

Do you have a suggestion for one? Just out of curiosity.

What bugs me is even with Deere oil it gets significantly worse the warmer the oil gets

I have an old OTC Flowratr that came from a dealership closing auction many years ago.

I would strongly suggest verifying the pump before turning to more drastic (and expensive) things.

It may well turn out to be OK, but it's cheap and easy to do if you can find a Flowratr to rent or borrow reasonably.

 

[Dale3887]

So let’s assume for a moment that I’m not going to find a flow rater to use.

The only thing I (dumbly) didn’t check while I had the pump out was to measure the gear diameter and the clearances to the top of the pump body.

There were no grooves or another noticeable wear on anything except the fan shaft, I could just barely feel a ridge where the old seals rode with my fingernail. However the new seals, bushings and bearings have stopped the foamy oil and pressure building in the pedestal, which was one of the main reasons I went ahead and did the pump.

I will add, the oil seems to warm up very quickly, like less than 5 minutes of running quickly. The valve and other components get nearly too hot to touch, (I’ll get a reading with my infrared temp gun later today). My (albeit limited) hydraulic knowledge, though says this is likely being created by bypassing in the pump rather than the valve body?

Any other options that might help validate the pump?

I do have a hydraulic shop nearby that may be able to test the pump for me. I can check with them. They are close enough I can get the tractor to them without issue at least. I assume the place to plumb the meter in would be between the pump and valve body. Or would it be better to take just the pump and some Deere oil and let them figure out their own test setup?

At this point the only component of the system I have not had completely apart is the valve body. I was slightly suspect of the relief valve at one point but had decided it was probably fine. I’m thinking I may go ahead and go through it and at least replace all the springs since that’s an easy enough task and clean the valve body up really well.

I’m assuming things to look for in the valve body are the various spool diameters along with the matching bores in the valve body. I don’t have my book infront of me at the moment, but does it give specs for at least the spools and/or the tolerance between the spools and body?

Anything else I should look for to validate the valve body?

 

[620 John]

By chance do you have another tractor you could swap the flow control valve assembly off of ??

Being a 630 it should have the relief valve also contained in the flow control valve housing so if there's an issue there it could be eliminated by swapping the whole assembly off another tractor that has the same setup

 

[Dale3887]

I do have a 730 with decent steering and a 530 that’s next on the list for a steering tune up. I might think about stealing the 730 valve assembly for testing. I suppose I could do the same with the pump. That’s a lot to take off 2 tractors at once though lol

 

[Dale3887]

Well update. Got out to the shop this afternoon. Pressure is still 6-700 even cold. However, the seals on the front of the pump (yeah the new ones) are leaking. It finally I guess spun the second second enough to leak out the front of the pump. So I’m guessing that’s where at least part of my problem is. I guess we’re taking the pump back off and I’ll make sure to measure tolerances this time.

Did get a good temp reading off the pump housing. After about 5 mins at WOT the max I saw was 125F

 

[LarrySTN]

So I’ve been going through a saga with my 630. Seals completely gave out on the pedestal so I finally had to tear it apart. Got everything back together. Still didn’t have great steering so went ahead and did bushings, seals and bearings in the pump. This is where I’m at now. (Copy paste from my Facebook post)

Ok. Officially at a loss on the steering for this 630. Been through and rebuilt the pedestal (all seals including vanes, and bushings). Rebuilt the pump. All new seals bearings and bushings. Filled halfway up the dipstick with Deere steering oil (AF2235R). First start was encouraging, I had one finger power steering. The longer it sat here the worse the steering got to the point that it’s basically manual steering now. Gauge shows 400psi at full lock. Flow control adjustment makes 0 difference in pressure (book says it should go up to 130psi when adjusted right) neither backing it all the way out nor running it in as far as possible make any change in the pressure reading.

The valve is as centered as I can get it. Although that’s basically pushed as far back toward the operator as it can go within its bolt holes and I just barely have left hand steering.

I set all of the backlash adjustments as close as I was able with my dial indicator. Worm end play is right on 4 thou. Helix width is as close as I can get it to 2 thou. The only adjustment I didn’t make was taking shims out between the worm and pedestal. It had 3 7 thou shims in it, so I put 3 new ones back. The wheel has nearly a quarter turn of free play in it, which is the same as it was before. I assume taking a shim out would help that, but I don’t foresee it helping the hydraulic side of things.

When I put the pedestal back together I honed the lower bushing to 2.502” like the manual says. I didn’t hone the top bushing. Again like the manual says. The pedestal went back together hard, but I attribute that to new parts and tight bushing tolerances that should wear in over time.

I did add one shim to the steering sector gear as it measured 27thou and spec was max 21, adding one shim brought it down as near as I could measure it to between 10 and 11 thou so it’s right where it should be.

I can check the cold pressure tomorrow once things cool off just to see what pressure is cold.

But I’ve run out of ideas. I set everything as close to spec as I could via the manual, but it seems like I’ve done nothing but make the steering worse. (Not that it was good to begin with).

Manual steering seems ok, it’s tough but equal in both directions so i dont think theres bind in the pedestal or shafts. I think it’s more likely just the new parts that havent worn in. I could be wrong though.

What am I missing?

It still seems pump related to me. But I guess I could be wrong. There was some wear on the fan shaft but not enough that it’s leaking oil or sucking air now that the seals have been replaced. Am I possibly doomed to taking the pump back out and either getting a rebuilt unit or having this one machined?

My only other guess is my helix width is still wrong. I set my dial indicator up like the book suggested and tried to get a reading but since this tractor has the longer steering support arm it’s difficult to move the actuating sleeve at all. I’d welcome any and all advice (or videos) on adjusting the helix width

While the manual call for worm end play tapered bearing should not have end play. In fact they should have .001-.003 preload. The end play counters the action of the steering valve making hangs and poor power steering response. Just because the books says doesn't mean it's right . I have repaired many of these power steering and everyone gets preload and they steering great, no longer binding at will. With the engine running pull hard and push hard on the steering wheel without turning the wheel, if the power steering tries to turn the front wheels the end play is certainly a culprit. Current 70 diesel and 50 owner that both there power steering work great.

 

[Dale3887]

While the manual call for worm end play tapered bearing should not have end play. In fact they should have .001-.003 preload. The end play counters the action of the steering valve making hangs and poor power steering response. Just because the books says doesn't mean it's right . I have repaired many of these power steering and everyone gets preload and they steering great, no longer binding at will. With the engine running pull hard and push hard on the steering wheel without turning the wheel, if the power steering tries to turn the front wheels the end play is certainly a culprit. Current 70 diesel and 50 owner that both there power steering work great.

So if I’m understanding your saying that having end play on the worm as the book says of 1-4 thou could potentially result in the worm and actuating sleeve assembly actuating the valve too far?

Just trying match up my understanding of how the system works with your comment. I understand the push/pull on the steering wheel part, as that could move the valve if there is too much end play in the work assembly.

It’s probably worth noting when I took it apart the bearings in the worm housing fell apart so I had to put new ones in when I reassembled it (those little bearing are stupid expensive from Deere) so bearing wear shouldn’t be a factor here which I have a feeling that’s what you’re compensating for when you preload the bearing rather than allowing end play.

My current plan is, knowing that I have a pump seal gone bad/leaking is to pull it back out. Strip it down again, check all the tolerances based on what the book says, which I didn’t do last time, I’m going to replace the seals, likely with some from green parts of va since they have the original style double lip wide seals. I believe they can get me a good pump shaft as well, so I’ll make a decision on that after I put the micrometer to it and find out just badly it’s worn.

Depending on tolerances I’ll go talk to my local hydro shop and see if they have a way to test the pump for me and/or have any suggestions for additional steps to take on rebuilding the pump/any machining to be done, etc.

If the tolerances are completely out of the realm of reality we’ll hunt either a good used pump or a reman pump.

Once that’s all done, we’ll get it back on the tractor, refill the oil and try it again. I’m hopeful it’s the seals were internally bypassing, due to installer error or some defect idk. I had one finger power steering the first two or three times I cycled the steering and then it slowly got worse. Since I couldn’t see any leaks that’s where I was assuming it was getting worse as it warmed up, but I’m hoping and thinking that it was actually just the seals starting to bypass internally more and more.

If we still have issues after we’ve validated and rebuilt the pump again, I’ll pull the known good valve off the 730 and stick it on this one and see if that fixes the issue.

I welcome any other input on my plan of attack though.

 

[wore out]

So if I’m understanding your saying that having end play on the worm as the book says of 1-4 thou could potentially result in the worm and actuating sleeve assembly actuating the valve too far?

Just trying match up my understanding of how the system works with your comment. I understand the push/pull on the steering wheel part, as that could move the valve if there is too much end play in the work assembly.

It’s probably worth noting when I took it apart the bearings in the worm housing fell apart so I had to put new ones in when I reassembled it (those little bearing are stupid expensive from Deere) so bearing wear shouldn’t be a factor here which I have a feeling that’s what you’re compensating for when you preload the bearing rather than allowing end play.

My current plan is, knowing that I have a pump seal gone bad/leaking is to pull it back out. Strip it down again, check all the tolerances based on what the book says, which I didn’t do last time, I’m going to replace the seals, likely with some from green parts of va since they have the original style double lip wide seals. I believe they can get me a good pump shaft as well, so I’ll make a decision on that after I put the micrometer to it and find out just badly it’s worn.

Depending on tolerances I’ll go talk to my local hydro shop and see if they have a way to test the pump for me and/or have any suggestions for additional steps to take on rebuilding the pump/any machining to be done, etc.

If the tolerances are completely out of the realm of reality we’ll hunt either a good used pump or a reman pump.

Once that’s all done, we’ll get it back on the tractor, refill the oil and try it again. I’m hopeful it’s the seals were internally bypassing, due to installer error or some defect idk. I had one finger power steering the first two or three times I cycled the steering and then it slowly got worse. Since I couldn’t see any leaks that’s where I was assuming it was getting worse as it warmed up, but I’m hoping and thinking that it was actually just the seals starting to bypass internally more and more.

If we still have issues after we’ve validated and rebuilt the pump again, I’ll pull the known good valve off the 730 and stick it on this one and see if that fixes the issue.

I welcome any other input on my plan of attack though.

New pump shaft seals aren't gonna leak UNLESS you mangled 'em installing them or something is worn in the pump or otherwise amiss there, and the modern narrow seals "back-to-back" work just fine.

 

[Dale3887]

New pump shaft seals aren't gonna leak UNLESS you mangled 'em installing them or something is worn in the pump or otherwise amiss there, and the modern narrow seals "back-to-back" work just fine.

That’s why I said I’m not sure it wasn’t installer error lol. We shall see once I have it out. More to come

 

[Dale3887]

So I think it was probably installer error. Or at least at this point that is the most likely culprit. The seal facing the oil side of the pump was caved in. Im thinking that’s the most likely cause, I didn’t see anything on the seal itself that was otherwise compromised.

Now there is a very slight lip on the pump housing, on the seal side. I’m thinking that needs to be dressed so it doesn’t end up tearing a seal, because that’s my only other guess as to what caused it.

I think I am going to go ahead and get a new pump shaft while it’s apart. I am going to replace the keys this time just for good measure.

Does anybody know if the gears are available anywhere besides the used market? Just looking for availability on those. I ran out of time today to do any measuring so I’m not sure if I need them yet.

 

[zilla24]

Glad you found your culprit. I have been following this as I'm currently in the middle of a pump resealing effort myself, unfortunately for me it turned into a complete system overhaul, the front pedestal is off the tractor as we speak. I've used all Deere parts in my rebuild thus far.

I don't know of anyone that sells reproduction gears for the pump, you will have to search the vast beyond for that. The shaft is available from GPofVA. Have you measured the shaft diameter?

 

[Dale3887]

I have not yet. I only get an hour or two each day to work on it and ran out of time yesterday. I’ll do I’ll my measuring today and see if it checks out.

I’m in the middle of the same though. The pedestal seals gave out and dumped the oil in the cylinder on the ground. That started all of it lol. Gone through the entire pedestal, worm assembly, I intentionally didn’t take the valve apart but it’s next if I’m still having issues.

 

[zilla24]

I would definitely pull the relief valve apart if your this far into it. I found the relief valve stuck on both the assembly that was on the tractor and a replacement that I purchased.

 

[Dale3887]

I’ve been questioning it anyway. I’ll probably do that once I get the bench cleaned off.

 

[Rich Duane]

So I’ve been going through a saga with my 630. Seals completely gave out on the pedestal so I finally had to tear it apart. Got everything back together. Still didn’t have great steering so went ahead and did bushings, seals and bearings in the pump. This is where I’m at now. (Copy paste from my Facebook post)

Ok. Officially at a loss on the steering for this 630. Been through and rebuilt the pedestal (all seals including vanes, and bushings). Rebuilt the pump. All new seals bearings and bushings. Filled halfway up the dipstick with Deere steering oil (AF2235R). First start was encouraging, I had one finger power steering. The longer it sat here the worse the steering got to the point that it’s basically manual steering now. Gauge shows 400psi at full lock. Flow control adjustment makes 0 difference in pressure (book says it should go up to 130psi when adjusted right) neither backing it all the way out nor running it in as far as possible make any change in the pressure reading.

The valve is as centered as I can get it. Although that’s basically pushed as far back toward the operator as it can go within its bolt holes and I just barely have left hand steering.

I set all of the backlash adjustments as close as I was able with my dial indicator. Worm end play is right on 4 thou. Helix width is as close as I can get it to 2 thou. The only adjustment I didn’t make was taking shims out between the worm and pedestal. It had 3 7 thou shims in it, so I put 3 new ones back. The wheel has nearly a quarter turn of free play in it, which is the same as it was before. I assume taking a shim out would help that, but I don’t foresee it helping the hydraulic side of things.

When I put the pedestal back together I honed the lower bushing to 2.502” like the manual says. I didn’t hone the top bushing. Again like the manual says. The pedestal went back together hard, but I attribute that to new parts and tight bushing tolerances that should wear in over time.

I did add one shim to the steering sector gear as it measured 27thou and spec was max 21, adding one shim brought it down as near as I could measure it to between 10 and 11 thou so it’s right where it should be.

I can check the cold pressure tomorrow once things cool off just to see what pressure is cold.

But I’ve run out of ideas. I set everything as close to spec as I could via the manual, but it seems like I’ve done nothing but make the steering worse. (Not that it was good to begin with).

Manual steering seems ok, it’s tough but equal in both directions so i dont think theres bind in the pedestal or shafts. I think it’s more likely just the new parts that havent worn in. I could be wrong though.

What am I missing?

It still seems pump related to me. But I guess I could be wrong. There was some wear on the fan shaft but not enough that it’s leaking oil or sucking air now that the seals have been replaced. Am I possibly doomed to taking the pump back out and either getting a rebuilt unit or having this one machined?

My only other guess is my helix width is still wrong. I set my dial indicator up like the book suggested and tried to get a reading but since this tractor has the longer steering support arm it’s difficult to move the actuating sleeve at all. I’d welcome any and all advice (or videos) on adjusting the helix width

I make new parts for the power steering and also repair the valve assembly. If you have time please call 410-643 2899 and we can talk about your problem.
Rich Duane

 

[Dale3887]

Hi Rich! I’m humbled you replied to my post, I’ll certainly get up with you in the coming days if this pump rebuild doesn’t solve my problem.