Starter or solenoid bad?

[Larry Barnes]

Hi Guys, after a long step by step study of why my 8N won't start in this cold weather, I accidentally discovered that the Ford's motor turns over much slower when the key switch is turned "on," than when it is left "off." I had replaced the two-year old 6-volt battery, thinking that was the problem. While the motor spins nicely when "off," turn the key to "on" and it slows to a "rump-rump' and the engine won't fire. Does a solenoid fade away when it gets old, or just die? Or is it the starter itself that's going bad? What's eating the power?
Thanks for your input!

 

[teddy52food]

timing is to early.

 

[Larry Barnes]

The tractor started and ran fine a couple weeks ago. The points are clean and set right. I'll have to study up on how to check and set the timing, in case that's it. Can't hurt to check...thanks.

 

[Eman85]

First step is to check the battery and all of the connections at both ends of the cables. Yes everything "fades away" dies or wears out over time including tractor owners. Don't just replace parts because you think something is bad, the part you buy many times is worse than what you are replacing. Google voltage drop test and you will be able to diagnose your solenoid, wiring and every other wiring problem you might encounter.

 

[DN-N-TN]

The tractor started and ran fine a couple weeks ago. The points are clean and set right. I'll have to study up on how to check and set the timing, in case that's it. Can't hurt to check...thanks.

Any time the dwell (point gap is wider or closer) is changed the ignition timing is also changed. A few thousands of an inch changes the timing considerable, and checking the timing with a light or the dwell with a dwell meter is a good practice.

 

[Jim.ME]

The tractor started and ran fine a couple weeks ago. The points are clean and set right. I'll have to study up on how to check and set the timing, in case that's it. Can't hurt to check...thanks.

Front or side mount distributor?

 

[Jim L WA]

It ran fine a couple of weeks ago. No one changed the timing or the point gap. I'm with Eman85. Clean the battery connections and report back please. We like to know if a suggestion worked or not.

 

[Larry Barnes]

Any time the dwell (point gap is wider or closer) is changed the ignition timing is also changed. A few thousands of an inch changes the timing considerable, and checking the timing with a light or the dwell with a dwell meter is a good practice.

I have a timing light...is there a "how to" on you tube, or someplace?

 

[Larry Barnes]

Front or side mount distributor?

side mount

 

[Larry Barnes]

It ran fine a couple of weeks ago. No one changed the timing or the point gap. I'm with Eman85. Clean the battery connections and report back please. We like to know if a suggestion worked or not.

Thanks Jim. Another fellow suggested checking the timing and I will do that tomorrow. However, timing would not make the motor spin faster if the ignition was on or off. And I think that's a symptom of what? Since the battery is new and the starter spins the motor fine when the switch is off, what is slowing down the spin when the ignition is turned on? I even flipped the switch to on while the motor was spinning. and it immediately slowed down the spin.
Thanks, Larry

 

[Larry Barnes]

Thanks Jim. Another fellow suggested checking the timing and I will do that tomorrow. However, timing would not make the motor spin faster if the ignition was on or off. And I think that's a symptom of what? Since the battery is new and the starter spins the motor fine when the switch is off, what is slowing down the spin when the ignition is turned on? I even flipped the switch to on while the motor was spinning. and it immediately slowed down the spin.
Thanks, Larry

A friend suggested that because I turned on the switch, that energy was taken from the battery as it was spinning the motor

 

[R Geiger]

I would check all 4 of the battery cable connections!

 

[wore out]

A friend suggested that because I turned on the switch, that energy was taken from the battery as it was spinning the motor

The starter probably draws up to 200 Amps, the ignition system draws around 4 Amps.

That 2% change in draw from the battery should have a negligible effect on cranking speed.



The most likely explanation is that ignition timing is too ''early" and the engine is "kicking back" against the starter.

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley RIP]

Hi Guys, after a long step by step study of why my 8N won't start in this cold weather, I accidentally discovered that the Ford's motor turns over much slower when the key switch is turned "on," than when it is left "off." I had replaced the two-year old 6-volt battery, thinking that was the problem. While the motor spins nicely when "off," turn the key to "on" and it slows to a "rump-rump' and the engine won't fire. Does a solenoid fade away when it gets old, or just die? Or is it the starter itself that's going bad? What's eating the power?
Thanks for your input!

Motor Test Starter Motor. VERIFY ALL YOUR WIRING IS CORRECT B4 powering up anything. Angle Mount Distributor is timed via side inspection cover to access flywheel hash marks. BREAKER POINTS GAPPED AT .025" ... MANUALS

TPD

 

[Hobo,NC]

Zero data I have zero guess. I would have thought out ammeter lubbers would nail this one without a doubt. We need voltage readings before, during and after the event. Clamp on amp clamps are so cheap now everyone can afford one. With a voltmeter, amp clamp you can get down to the nitty gritty of the charging starting system no guess needed and no rubbing on it till you are lost and broke : ).

Charging starting system has became a lost art why I dunno I would speculate no one cares to learn it they had rather rub on it clean bright and tight seams to be the pattern here. The good I counted this week I have at least 6 good used batteries on my shop floor WHY it was their first guess and they were wrong.

Take it to a parts store for a health check I would wager sometimes their guess (its a guess) is right : (. They don't know either its a guess the art of the deal has been lost forever. Battery sales come first WHY there is no free ride.

 

[Btzj02]

Motor Test Starter Motor. VERIFY ALL YOUR WIRING IS CORRECT B4 powering up anything. Angle Mount Distributor is timed via side inspection cover to access flywheel hash marks. BREAKER POINTS GAPPED AT .025" ... MANUALS

TPD

Using the above diagram it would not hurt to verify your wiring on the "switched" side of the terminal block. Since your issue seems to occur when the ignition switch is turned on. I agree with this thread that the ignition timing most likely is the culprit but I have seen some pretty bad hack jobs on wiring and it wouldn't hurt to verify that you don't have a high resistance drain to ground when the switch is turned on. Please let us know what solution you come up with.

 

[Btzj02]

Zero data I have zero guess. I would have thought out ammeter lubbers would nail this one without a doubt. We need voltage readings before, during and after the event. Clamp on amp clamps are so cheap now everyone can afford one. With a voltmeter, amp clamp you can get down to the nitty gritty of the charging starting system no guess needed and no rubbing on it till you are lost and broke : ).

Charging starting system has became a lost art why I dunno I would speculate no one cares to learn it they had rather rub on it clean bright and tight seams to be the pattern here. The good I counted this week I have at least 6 good used batteries on my shop floor WHY it was their first guess and they were wrong.

Take it to a parts store for a health check I would wager sometimes their guess (its a guess) is right : (. They don't know either its a guess the art of the deal has been lost forever. Battery sales come first WHY there is no free ride.

A voltmeter is invaluable for trouble shooting the electricals on these tractors AND a correctly wired Amp meter is just another tool to narrow down the problem. Recently I converted one of my tractors to 12 volts. The conversion kit came with a beautifully illustrated book to help in the conversion but the wiring diagram was incorrect in that the Amp meter was wired to only read the alternator output, zero to 30+ amps but, the gauge would never go negative indicating a drain on the system. Buyer beware!

 

[DN-N-TN]

Any time the dwell (point gap is wider or closer) is changed the ignition timing is also changed. A few thousands of an inch changes the timing considerable, and checking the timing with a light or the dwell with a dwell meter is a good practice.

I also have an old load tester that I have had for years, and if the battery is in doubt, I slow charge it and then check it. My load tester will let me know in a few seconds if the battery is bad. I can also clamp it on the battery while the vehicle is running and give the charging system a check also. I have a lot of older equipment in my shop that I used in the 70-80's that really comes in handy on old tractors.

 

[Larry Barnes]

First step is to check the battery and all of the connections at both ends of the cables. Yes everything "fades away" dies or wears out over time including tractor owners. Don't just replace parts because you think something is bad, the part you buy many times is worse than what you are replacing. Google voltage drop test and you will be able to diagnose your solenoid, wiring and every other wiring problem you might encounter.

Thanks, I cleaned all the battery connections and the spin is better now. It still didn't start, but I can take that one off the list. Now I'm going to look at the timing. Today maybe

 

[DN-N-TN]

Just a little tip----If you're in a situation where that you have no tester or anything to check and see if your alternator is charging or not, not sure the gauge works right, etc., pull out your pocket knife (most guys carry one), touch the spring side of the knife to the rear bearing cage on the alternator while the engine is running. If it is charging, it will be magnetised and the knife will stick to it. I know this is not according to Hoyle, but try it for yourself and see if it doesn't work.