Farmall super A starting problem

[K-Mo]

Guys - I'm out of ideas as to why I get my my Suer A to start. This a tractor listed as a parts tractor I bought last spring for the cultivators and decided to fix it up. It was missing the hood and starter for parts and turns out one cylinder was full of water. I've purchased other tactors with similar motor issues and got them all running quite well so no big deal on this one, right? I had a new set of pistons and sleeves so I put them in along with having the head redone at a local shop. Had to free up the valve train as it was rusted. Converted to 12 volt electrical system (battery ignition) with a resistor and 6 volt coil, cleaned the fuel system and put on new MS carb. Have them on other tractors and work well almost out of the box. I got everything together. I have 125 psi on each cylinder and great suction when I put my hand over the air breather. Finally got it to start up. Had several issues including fuel and radiator leaks and a clutch that wouldn't work so didn't run only a minute or so but ran decent for not adjusting anything. A few more very short starts trying to work out the leaks and one occasion ran it long enough I retorqued the head afterwards and reset the valves. Couldn't see the timing marks so decided to try static timing the engine and then couldn't get it to restart. Decided to to buy a clutch kit and a new sediment bowl and fuel line. I put in the clutch and marked the timing mark on the flywheel while I had it off and installed the new fuel parts. While I had the fuel apart I took off the carb to make sure junk hadn't gotten into and everything was clean and solvent flowed out everywhere it should so put it back on. Still couldn't get it to start. After moving the distributor for timing I finally got it to start and this time I ran it for about 10 minutes. Drove it around and looked for what ever else needed to be done. Ran for about 10 minutes and used a timing light to set timing. Was running good, shut it off and haven't been able to get it to start again since. I have good flow of gas to carb and pulled a plug a couple of times and checked for spark. I even rechecked my valves this morning and almost no change. I know this is kind of long for asking for help but wanted to include everything I have done and rechecked. Cap is wired correct for firing order - 1-3-4-2. Its probably something stupid and I am willing to be embarrassed over it if I get it to reliably start. I'm stumped. Anyone think of something I'm missing or could still be wrong.

Check to see if the pin securing drive gear to the distributor shaft is sheared.

 

[Charlie M]

I've tried moving the rotor and it doesn't act like the pin is missing. I'm on the idea I have a governor problem and once I get everything moving properly I'll find out if that was the problem.

 

[Charlie M]

Got things all freed up and fixed with my governors and still no start. I did static time the tractor again as removing the governor did change that a bit. However I have something that maybe makes sense to someone - I had the muffler off during my recent attempt to start the tractor and saw white exhaust coming from the exhaust pipe. Probably been doing that along but not really noticeable with the muffler attached. What could cause that and the tractor still not running.

 

[grandpa Love]

Got things all freed up and fixed with my governors and still no start. I did static time the tractor again as removing the governor did change that a bit. However I have something that maybe makes sense to someone - I had the muffler off during my recent attempt to start the tractor and saw white exhaust coming from the exhaust pipe. Probably been doing that along but not really noticeable with the muffler attached. What could cause that and the tractor still not running.

Are you positive that the timing is correct? We have replaced governors , magnetos and distributors on hundreds of these things and every now and then we still get one 180° off. Usually easy to catch,they puff white-ish smoke. Move your plug wires one spot clockwise on the distributor cap, still nothing? Now move them one more spot clockwise,you are now 180° off.....or it will fire right up.

 

[Duner Wi]

Spark plug wires installed correct direction of rotation? I know, stupid question but I have seen it happen.

 

[used red MN]

saw white exhaust coming from the exhaust pipe.

In my opinion that it just the gas air mix that had been compressed, possibly combusting a bit from an out of time spark.
Edit: I didn’t read GL’s reply 24 close enough I see he mentioned the same thing. Oh no,… we agree?!?!

 

[Charlie M]

Guys - I know you are all saying timing and if I were in your seat I would say timing but I can't see any way it is. I static timed it after the governor was put back together and last night my son was here and we walked through it again. Made sure #1 was on top of compression stroke - had a gage on it as its kind of tuff to get my thumb over the hole, did final timing line up with the timing mark on the flywheel, rotor was at the firing position and then proceeded to static time by moving distributor until a #1 spark plug we had out fired. Last time I got it started a couple of weeks ago I used a timing light on it and that was the last time I got it to start. Distributor cap can only go on one way and son double checked me on the order of the wires. I've had them on wrong on other jobs before so that is always the first thing I check. I'd love someone to tell me I've been doing it wrong and end up getting the tractor to run. I'm willing to be embarrassed if it solves this mystery. This tractor makes #7 in my fleet of 12 that didn't run when I bought them and have never run into this kind of problem before.

 

[grandpa Love]

Guys - I know you are all saying timing and if I were in your seat I would say timing but I can't see any way it is. I static timed it after the governor was put back together and last night my son was here and we walked through it again. Made sure #1 was on top of compression stroke - had a gage on it as its kind of tuff to get my thumb over the hole, did final timing line up with the timing mark on the flywheel, rotor was at the firing position and then proceeded to static time by moving distributor until a #1 spark plug we had out fired. Last time I got it started a couple of weeks ago I used a timing light on it and that was the last time I got it to start. Distributor cap can only go on one way and son double checked me on the order of the wires. I've had them on wrong on other jobs before so that is always the first thing I check. I'd love someone to tell me I've been doing it wrong and end up getting the tractor to run. I'm willing to be embarrassed if it solves this mystery. This tractor makes #7 in my fleet of 12 that didn't run when I bought them and have never run into this kind of problem before.

It costs nothing but 3 minutes of your time to move the plug wires........

 

[744k]

I've read the entire post twice and nobody has mentioned anything about the float level, would this create a hard starting if there wasn't enough gas in the bowl. If you have good flow to the carb does that mean the fuel level is correct, just a thought.

 

[Charlie M]

I had the carb apart once thinking junk might have gotten in from the old fuel line. Didn't measure the height. Since the tractor had run before I didn't think much about it other than make sure everything was clean. Tractor was ran once after reinstallation and that was the last time it ran.

 

[Powered By IH]

Guys - I know you are all saying timing and if I were in your seat I would say timing but I can't see any way it is. I static timed it after the governor was put back together and last night my son was here and we walked through it again. Made sure #1 was on top of compression stroke - had a gage on it as its kind of tuff to get my thumb over the hole, did final timing line up with the timing mark on the flywheel, rotor was at the firing position and then proceeded to static time by moving distributor until a #1 spark plug we had out fired. Last time I got it started a couple of weeks ago I used a timing light on it and that was the last time I got it to start. Distributor cap can only go on one way and son double checked me on the order of the wires. I've had them on wrong on other jobs before so that is always the first thing I check. I'd love someone to tell me I've been doing it wrong and end up getting the tractor to run. I'm willing to be embarrassed if it solves this mystery. This tractor makes #7 in my fleet of 12 that didn't run when I bought them and have never run into this kind of problem before.

I'd find an alternate way to fire the tractor. Spray gas, starting fluid, carb cleaner, whatever into the engine and see if it runs off of that. If it does, then it's a carb issue. If it doesn't, then spark/timing issue. You might have multiple issues, but you have to fix one problem at a time. That way, you can also isolate your problem.

Good luck!

 

[Charlie M]

Doesn't run on starting fluid - tried that. Got great sucking through the breather as I have had my hand over that and found out. Could I have messed up something in the carb putting it back together to cause the white exhaust I'm seeing. I don't think the venturi can be put back wrong on a MS carb and get the two halves back together. Could be wrong. Apparently I'm wrong somewhere in this process. Maybe I'll take it off tomorrow and have another peek inside.

 

[used red MN]

Doesn't run on starting fluid - tried that. Got great sucking through the breather as I have had my hand over that and found out. Could I have messed up something in the carb putting it back together to cause the white exhaust I'm seeing. I don't think the venturi can be put back wrong on a MS carb and get the two halves back together. Could be wrong. Apparently I'm wrong somewhere in this process. Maybe I'll take it off tomorrow and have another peek inside.

Do you get what Grandpa Love is telling you about the spark plug wires? Put the plug wire for cylinder 1 into the cap terminal that #4 is currently in and follow it around clockwise with the rest in the firing order 3-4-2. See if it starts. Were you using the starter to bump the engine around when you had the compression gauge in number 1 to set it on TDC compression? If so that little engine on 12 volts can crank so fast you likely blasted past TDC compression for #1 and then lined up on #1 TDC on the exhaust stroke. Like GL said it only take a couple minutes. Sometimes corner cutters practices can help you out. It’s probably no really a “cut corner” just a smart way to confirm it doesn’t start with the wires 180 out then you can rule the distributor is not 180 out.
And when you says you had your hand on breather tube I assume that is coming out of the hood. Pull the tube at the carb and crank it with your hand held over the carb intake. If your hand is covered with gas and it dribbles out of the carb you are getting enough gas to start it. That means chasing the boogie man out of the carb is wasting your time. Now after it starts and won’t run right that is a whole different can of worms.

I am willing to be embarrassed over it if I get it to reliably start. I'm stumped.

You said this in your opening, man up and listen to what is being said.

 

[Charlie M]

I've been listening to what is being said and have tried everything that has been suggested, including swapping wires. For the record when I was setting the timing I was using a crank. All this aside, found out tonight I may be dealing with bad fuel. I got the carb off tonight before it got dark and it was very slimy inside. It was clean a month ago. Doesn't smell like gasoline either. I've never had a bad fuel problem and this was fresh gas about a month ago - 10% ethanol gas. Before you all lecture me about shelf life of ethanol gas, I've had same fuel sit all summer in tractors that don't run much and tractors still ran fine. I'm going to clean up everything tomorrow and put in some non ethanol gas and see what happens.

 

[Jim Becker]

I'd find an alternate way to fire the tractor. Spray gas, starting fluid, carb cleaner, whatever into the engine and see if it runs off of that. If it does, then it's a carb issue. If it doesn't, then spark/timing issue.

Doesn't run on starting fluid - tried that.

Okay, Powered By IH suggested using starting fluid to narrow your problem down to either a fuel or an ignition problem. You say you ran that test and it does not run on starting fluid. Granted, the test isn't 100% guaranteed to always give an absolute result. But why are you mucking around with the carburetor and fuel when the result of the test says it is an ignition problem?

 

[used red MN]

Sorry if I came on to strong, just trying to get my point across.

have tried everything that has been suggested, including swapping wires.

That’s good to know.

For the record when I was setting the timing I was using a crank.

My mistake, made an assumption.

Before you all lecture me about shelf life of ethanol gas, I've had same fuel sit all summer in tractors that don't run much and tractors still ran fine.

I don’t think ethanol gas is bad stuff. Is almost appears that in some areas there must be more problems with it than others.

I'm going to clean up everything tomorrow and put in some non ethanol gas and see what happens.

Hope that works, Jim Becker has a good point about the starting fluid check. Seems to indicate an ignition problem.
I don’t see anywhere that you say you tried a different condenser. Would seem odd to fail almost instantaneously since you said it ran a few times.
Another thing I would suggest is take the resistor out of the coil feed circuit until you get it started. This will provide a hotter spark and will harm nothing. The 6 volt coil will take a half hour run on 12 volts with no negative effects. Just don’t leave it set with the switch on and the points closed for very long.

 

[Charlie M]

Yesterday I posted I had the carb off my tractor and it was crapped up and gas looking like it had gone bad. I drained the tank this morning and the whole tank is crapped up so its going to need to be taken off and cleaned. I had cleaned the tank at the start of the project is it had something die in it over the years of sitting outside and no gas cap. Its going to be a month or two before I get to it as I have another project I've moved into place and want to get done done summer. So this will be my last post on the problem for now. Thanks to everyone that tried to help.

 

[grandpa Love]

Yesterday I posted I had the carb off my tractor and it was crapped up and gas looking like it had gone bad. I drained the tank this morning and the whole tank is crapped up so its going to need to be taken off and cleaned. I had cleaned the tank at the start of the project is it had something die in it over the years of sitting outside and no gas cap. Its going to be a month or two before I get to it as I have another project I've moved into place and want to get done done summer. So this will be my last post on the problem for now. Thanks to everyone that tried to help.

Before you give up and leave us hanging.....try to start it with the carb off and a shot of starting fluid up the intake..... we would all love to know if it hits off

 

[Charlie M]

Hate to leave anyone hanging - I put a shot down the air breather as I already had the carb back on but it started up. There is no fuel in it to mix with the starting fluid. Didn't try anything fancy with the starting fluid as I don't have any water in my leaky radiator. Looks like we have the answer - bad fuel. I've bought tractors with bad fuel and a messed up tank because of it but never one that happened sitting my yard.

 

[kshansen]

Hate to leave anyone hanging - I put a shot down the air breather as I already had the carb back on but it started up. There is no fuel in it to mix with the starting fluid. Didn't try anything fancy with the starting fluid as I don't have any water in my leaky radiator. Looks like we have the answer - bad fuel. I've bought tractors with bad fuel and a messed up tank because of it but never one that happened sitting my yard.

Did it actually start and keep running or just fire for a couple seconds? I would want to give it a couple shots to keep it running for say 5 to 10 seconds. That should not get anything too hot and maybe even let you see the oil pressure start to climb.