1600 stuck engine

[rrlund]

I got the 1600 in to the shop today and dropped the pan. Number 3 rod was stuck. I took one nut off of the cap and loosened the other one. It was rolled up where it was hard to get to, so I tried to roll it around and it was free. I got it turned down and took the cap off. There was just an ever so slight mark inline with the oil holes in it. I could see a little discoloration on the crank in a little band in line with the oil holes in the bearing and it felt a little rough when I ran a finger across it.

I took the bearing down to my son's shop and let him look at it. He said he couldn't believe it even stuck the engine, no worse than it looked. There's no burn marks on the inside or outside. I asked him to stop tonight and take a look at the crank and see what he thinks. I asked him if I should take some Emory cloth to it and see it it cleans up. He told me to go ahead and try it. It cleaned right up, looks good and shiny and feels smooth, but I'll let him have the last word on it. He had Brandy order another bearing. She said it's be here in the morning.

Now if I can just find a bearing for the governor. I told him to bring home a better mic and measure that too. I'm coming up with a 14mm shaft size and 31mm OD with a mechanical mic. I'll have him check with a digital since all I'm finding are bearings for 12, 13 and 15mm shaft size.

 

[mkuhns]

If you find a thrust bearing number for that governor, let us know. I did hours of research and thought I found the right one. Needless to say I didn't. Be careful, the I.D. of the bearing thrust washers may be different sizes on each side of the bearing. So, be careful when ordering. The old style governors take different diameter thrust bearings than the newer ones with the laminated weights also. I'd make sure that oil spray jet in the block is open that sprays oil on that rod bearing. Sound like u may have gotten lucky on this one.

 

[JOCCO]

RR I am not sure I processed all this correctly but here is food for thought. COULD THE ROD BE TWISTED OR BENT? causing the lock up I have seen it happen. I would want to check all the bearings with plasti gauge. It's hard to believe an engine came down from full power and seized without any damage.

 

[rrlund]

If you find a thrust bearing number for that governor, let us know. I did hours of research and thought I found the right one. Needless to say I didn't. Be careful, the I.D. of the bearing thrust washers may be different sizes on each side of the bearing. So, be careful when ordering. The old style governors take different diameter thrust bearings than the newer ones with the laminated weights also. I'd make sure that oil spray jet in the block is open that sprays oil on that rod bearing. Sound like u may have gotten lucky on this one.

I found what I think is the right thrust bearing from McMaster Carr. We got nowhere using metric measurements, but when we went to standard, I hope this one will be right. If it's loose. there might be some JB Weld involved before this job is done. LOL

Where are those jets that spray oil? My son figured they're just splash. They have two large dip holes in the top.

 

[rrlund]

RR I am not sure I processed all this correctly but here is food for thought. COULD THE ROD BE TWISTED OR BENT? causing the lock up I have seen it happen. I would want to check all the bearings with plasti gauge. It's hard to believe an engine came down from full power and seized without any damage.

I don't think the rod is bent or twisted. All of the damage in in the center, right in line with the lube holes. Those rod bearings aren't pressure lubed. Jon said if there had been any dirt that got in thee, they should have been scored more. He did find a line that looked like there had been a hair on the back of the bearing. He said that would have taken up enough space to make it too tight. He figured that between not enough clearance and the engine racing and throwing the oil who knows where, is just dried out and bound up. It was running rough, only on 5 cylinders and maybe even only four when it happened, so it was pretty gutless. It has us scratching our heads too, that it would bog down and set up with so little damage.

I took some Emory cloth to it. Jon stopped last night and looked at it. He said it looked good.

 

[rrlund]

I've been straining my brain all morning while was hauling manure, trying to figure out what's different about that rod or why it went dry. All I can figure is, that one is next to the oil pump, kind of above the pick up. I wonder if when it revved, that deflected the oil long enough to dry it out?

 

[mkuhns]

Oil gets sprayed down from the block from a whole along side the lifters from the main oil galley. It's the hole just to the left of the lower sleeve bore. Most of the smaller olivers were this way until the 7 main cranks.

 

[rrlund]

Oil gets sprayed down from the block from a whole along side the lifters from the main oil galley. It's the hole just to the left of the lower sleeve bore. Most of the smaller olivers were this way until the 7 main cranks.View attachment 105294

OK. I see it now. I'll check it. Thanks for the tip.

 

[RWT]

Oil gets sprayed down from the block from a whole along side the lifters from the main oil galley. It's the hole just to the left of the lower sleeve bore. Most of the smaller olivers were this way until the 7 main cranks.View attachment 105294

That is not the main gallery. It is a secondary gallery that gets pulsed oil when the slots on the crank line up with the two holes that you can see in your picture. It is pulsed 3 times per revolution from the center mains.

The rockers are fed the same way off of the rear main. The timing gear, governor bushing or injection pump are fed from the front main. These are one shot per revolution. And they get plenty of oil.

RT

 

[JOCCO]

I've been straining my brain all morning while was hauling manure, trying to figure out what's different about that rod or why it went dry. All I can figure is, that one is next to the oil pump, kind of above the pick up. I wonder if when it revved, that deflected the oil long enough to dry it out?

I been away at a meeting. Yes, I have been puzzled by engine failure more times than not. Another thought and I don't know a lot about that engine. Could dirt or some such shut the oil off to it or in those holes the others mentioned. If it has oil lines could they be leaking or unhooked? I hope you consider my plastic gauge idea when you reinstall it.

 

[scootergmc]

That is the weakest lockup I have ever seen. So weak that I don't think it's all that's going on. Something else seems just not right.

 

[JOCCO]

That is the weakest lockup I have ever seen. So weak that I don't think it's all that's going on. Something else seems just not right.

I am with you on that, or he is the luckiest man on the planet.

 

[rrlund]

I am with you on that, or he is the luckiest man on the planet.

We're going to find out when that bearing for the governor gets here. I got it back together, pan on and oil in it. It turns over. I put a stainless wire up in that oil squirter. No resistance, went in as far as it did in all the rest. I blew air in it. I'm assuming it's working. Just waiting for Brandy to call and tell me the bearing and ignition kit are here. Fingers crossed, but with my luck, the crank will break as soon as I start it.

 

[JOCCO]

Well, look on the bright side I have broken more than 1 crank

 

[rrlund]

An update. We're still working on it. I think we've got the governor bearing problem solved. We had to go with a bearing with a larger ID. We took the end caps from the original and used the center cage with the balls in it from the new one with the larger ID. Rusty got busy on the lathe and made a bushing the width of the cage, OD the same as the ID of the cage, and ID the same as the shaft. Seems to work.

I'll have to pull the head and pull the rod out. It's just too tight when we roll it around. Jon brought home a real precise mic today. The damage was on the third cylinder. We pulled the number 4 cap today and checked the diameter on both. They're identical. We cleaned everything up, used plasti-gauge in both, even tried it with the bearing from 4 in 3 and they checked out the same. We put the bearing from 4 in 3 without lube, rolled it around one revolution and it put a bad shine on it. The edges of the cap are blue from heat. It's hard to get the cap off when we put it back on. The bolts are hanging it up. Jon said the rod must be distorted from heat and distorting the bearing in the rod side of it. We can't figure why the plasti-gauge is the same in the cap on both 3 and 4, but we'll have to pull it out and find out. The only thing he can figure right now is that maybe when that thrust bearing was worn in to the crank, MAYBE it twisted that rod and got it hot. No idea why it only would have done it to one rod though. It doesn't make sense why it ran for 5 months before it got hot and locked up, even after we had the crank welded up and put new mains in it. The oil pump casting in the block is in the way of getting his gauge up in there to check the rod in place.

I don't know. We'll get it figured out eventually. He said he can recondition the rod. I need to call Korves tomorrow for something else. I'll check and see if they have one. Jon told me to go ahead, but if they didn't have one, he'd recondition this one.

 

[JOCCO]

I am glad you are making progress! You have been noticeably absent for a few days. I would not hesitate to get a new rod and be done with it! your son should have a rod jig in his shop to check it with. By the way DIDN' T SOMEONE MENTION POSIBLITY OF A TWISTED ROD??????

 

[rrlund]

I am glad you are making progress! You have been noticeably absent for a few days. I would not hesitate to get a new rod and be done with it! your son should have a rod jig in his shop to check it with. By the way DIDN' T SOMEONE MENTION POSIBLITY OF A TWISTED ROD??????

He didn't really say that it was twisted now, just that he wondered if the heat was from the rod being twisted forward while the thrust bearing was bad. Either that, or it got discolored when the bearing burned up. Nothing is making sense to us if the rod was twisted or bent from the bad crank and thrust since it lasted 5 months after having it welded up and the rod journals ground .010, but nothing has made any sense to us yet as to why it smoked that bearing in the first place. Not saying for even a second that you're wrong. We just don't know yet. If you were right, you win the prize of figuring it out before we did. The marks on the bearing still aren't tracking to one side or the other. It was shiny in the canter and on both edges like there were three high spots on the crank, but he said it's not checking out that way with the mic. He seemed to have a reason in his mind why it would do that if the rod was distorted, but it's still going over my clod kicking mind. I guess that's why he makes he big bucks and doesn't have manure on his shoes all day.

I'll try to get it out tomorrow afternoon after I get back from the stock yard, and run it down to the shop so he can check it out, if Korves doesn't have one.

 

[JOCCO]

He didn't really say that it was twisted now, just that he wondered if the heat was from the rod being twisted forward while the thrust bearing was bad. Either that, or it got discolored when the bearing burned up. Nothing is making sense to us if the rod was twisted or bent from the bad crank and thrust since it lasted 5 months after having it welded up and the rod journals ground .010, but nothing has made any sense to us yet as to why it smoked that bearing in the first place. Not saying for even a second that you're wrong. We just don't know yet. If you were right, you win the prize of figuring it out before we did. The marks on the bearing still aren't tracking to one side or the other. It was shiny in the canter and on both edges like there were three high spots on the crank, but he said it's not checking out that way with the mic. He seemed to have a reason in his mind why it would do that if the rod was distorted, but it's still going over my clod kicking mind. I guess that's why he makes he big bucks and doesn't have manure on his shoes all day.

I'll try to get it out tomorrow afternoon after I get back from the stock yard, and run it down to the shop so he can check it out, if Korves doesn't have one.

Well pilgrim I had to rib you a little! I have seen many strange situations on engines some I never understood. I am sure your son would smoke me on any engine rebuild or engine knowledge. That being said if there was any doubt about that rod in my little warped mind IT WOULD BE GONE! Go up to the off topic and check out the broken crank shaft tread I did. I hope it gets better for you soon and I been in your shoes more than once. You were quite lucky it did not put a window in the block. My luck it would have or broken the crank! Last I was putting together a 318-Dodge simple rebuild. But the front 2 rods would bind her up right know when torqued down. Ended up putting 2 new rods in and all was well. Could not figure it out neither could an engine shop. They were tweeked somehow but came out of running motor!

 

[rrlund]

Well pilgrim I had to rib you a little! I have seen many strange situations on engines some I never understood. I am sure your son would smoke me on any engine rebuild or engine knowledge. That being said if there was any doubt about that rod in my little warped mind IT WOULD BE GONE! Go up to the off topic and check out the broken crank shaft tread I did. I hope it gets better for you soon and I been in your shoes more than once. You were quite lucky it did not put a window in the block. My luck it would have or broken the crank! Last I was putting together a 318-Dodge simple rebuild. But the front 2 rods would bind her up right know when torqued down. Ended up putting 2 new rods in and all was well. Could not figure it out neither could an engine shop. They were tweeked somehow but came out of running motor!

The sun came out and I got ambitious and pulled it out. I took it down to Jon's house so he can check it out tomorrow. Odd thing now is, there's no sign of any heat on the rod at all, only the cap.

I hope we got that governor bearing so it'll last. If it does, I guess that's the answer, take two bearings to make one, but you'd better have a lathe or know somebody who does. Heck of It is, I wrecked another head gasket and need another new one.

 

[GermantownGreen]

Good luck with your project. Very interesting read. Thanks for sharing. GG Wes