188d troubles

[Ozarks Hunter]

I have a early 188d that's giving me fits.
I replaced a head gasket a couple years ago. It ended up being the one size fits all gasket which doesn't work on the narrow flange. Blew that gasket at start up. Was referred to talk with Dale Weiss and he set me on the right path to the correct gasket. Man was that thing expensive.
Head was sent off and checked with new valves installed. I put it all back together and it just didn't run right and smokes.
While idling with the exhaust manifold off if I crack the throttle it will blow smoke out of#1.
Almost seems like it has a miss. When I crack injector lines it alters the idle.
I have noticed a small amount of coolant in the oil in the past. I've done a oil change recently and will check again soon to see if that is happening now.
I done a compression test and all cylinders are right at 350.
Today I done a smoke test through the injector holes with all rockers removed. The only smoke I saw was a very small amount from the oil fill tube when on#1 and#2. Looks like a little getting by the rings. I wouldn't think that would be enough to make it run rough. I have noticed that while running if I pull the dipstick it will sling oil. Never done that before.
I have checked pump timing and it's correct.
I'm going to do some more checking on the cooling system next I guess.
What an I missing or does anyone have any ideas. I imagine I'm in for a rebuild in the near future.

 

[Tgrasher]

If it were mine, I'd check the injectors. If it was running fair before the blown gasket, they are the only thing that got handled and possible dirt got in line.

 

[Ozarks Hunter]

Have thought about that as well.
Nice tractor in your picture. This engine is in a 430.

 

[WilBury]

Pencil injectors or the big ones? Pencils are cheap enough and new tips are still available for the biggies at about the same price if you don't just refurbish 'em.

 

[Ozarks Hunter]

Pencils. I'm going to just order a set. They're pretty cheap.

 

[WilBury]

Pencils? Not that early then...lol

 

[Ozarks Hunter]

I had to put a little thicker rubber washer between the injector and head.
That would hold the injector up just a bit in the chamber. Would that cause a problem?

 

[WilBury]

Not familiar with the pencils.

 

[Ozarks Hunter]

Been so long since I looked up the serial number can't remember the year. I know it has the narrow flange sleeves.

 

[Ozarks Hunter]

Looks like it's a 68.

 

[DanielW]

When you got the correct gasket, did you also get the correct fire rings (separate pieces) that are supposed to go with that separate gasket? There were different thicknesses of fire rings available depending on sleeve protrusion/inset. I always order the thickest ones regardless of measured protrusion - because they're copper and only a few thou thicker, they seem to squishify and work just fine. Maybe that's not 'proper' practice, but it worked for me.

I do know that our 630 has a leaking cooling system when my father bought - intending it to be a parts tractor. Put in a new gasket with the thicker fire rings and it stopped leaking (and is now our best-running tractor).

 

[Ozarks Hunter]

I did get the separate fire rings but as far as correct ones I guess I'm not sure.
The gasket came from Dale Weiss who as I understand is a very knowledgeable man when it comes to case stuff so I would think he sent the right ones.

 

[Dieseltech]

I had to put a little thicker rubber washer between the injector and head.
That would hold the injector up just a bit in the chamber. Would that cause a problem?

WHY did you do that? The correct compression seal should have been used, NEVER an O ring there.

 

[Ozarks Hunter]

WHY did you do that? The correct compression seal should have been used, NEVER an O ring there.

Hmmm. I was having injectors tested at a diesel pump shop and asked about sealing compression and was told that the rubber between the injector and the head was not to seal compression. They said the white bulge area on the injector that fits inside the head was the seal. Sounds like that was wrong info?

 

[Dieseltech]

Hmmm. I was having injectors tested at a diesel pump shop and asked about sealing compression and was told that the rubber between the injector and the head was not to seal compression. They said the white bulge area on the injector that fits inside the head was the seal. Sounds like that was wrong info?

YES, ABSOLUTELY WRONG INFO!! The TOP seals compression, the lower CARBON DAM keeps carbon out so injector can be removed easily in the future without trouble. The white carbon dam WILL blow and leak anytime the TOP seal DOES NOT hold compression. The TOP MUST seal, and they come in different thicknesses depending on engine make/model, and is NOT EVER rubber, more like a hard plastic that WILL melt whenever engine is severely overheated. Also be aware, the area where the top seal makes contact on injector must NOT be damaged during removal or seal will not hold, making injector junk. Careless use of pry bars will ruin injector quickly.

 

[Ozarks Hunter]

YES, ABSOLUTELY WRONG INFO!! The TOP seals compression, the lower CARBON DAM keeps carbon out so injector can be removed easily in the future without trouble. The white carbon dam WILL blow and leak anytime the TOP seal DOES NOT hold compression. The TOP MUST seal, and they come in different thicknesses depending on engine make/model, and is NOT EVER rubber, more like a hard plastic that WILL melt whenever engine is severely overheated. Also be aware, the area where the top seal makes contact on injector must NOT be damaged during removal or seal will not hold, making injector junk. Careless use of pry bars will ruin injector quickl

 

[Ozarks Hunter]

I know the hard plastic seals you speak of. I kinda wondered how the carbon dam could seal compression especially when the injector has been pulled several times. I have a 450 case dozer with the same engine and the hard plastic is on it.
The reason for the rubber on the engine in question is the hard plastic would not seal and would leak compression. They are not orings but a thick rubber washer that fills the recessed area in the head. The sealing surface on the head has been scarred up not letting the hard plastic seal. No compression leak with the rubber.
Now that I think of it id say the right ones are taller than the rubber. Will the rubber cause a problem or should I try and repair the seating surface on the head?

 

[Dieseltech]

I know the hard plastic seals you speak of. I kinda wondered how the carbon dam could seal compression especially when the injector has been pulled several times. I have a 450 case dozer with the same engine and the hard plastic is on it.
The reason for the rubber on the engine in question is the hard plastic would not seal and would leak compression. They are not orings but a thick rubber washer that fills the recessed area in the head. The sealing surface on the head has been scarred up not letting the hard plastic seal. No compression leak with the rubber.
Now that I think of it id say the right ones are taller than the rubber. Will the rubber cause a problem or should I try and repair the seating surface on the head?

Those seals should BOTH be replaced anytime a good injector is reinstalled in the head. The top Stanandyne Case injector seal is 16168 and the white carbon dam is 16389. The top one MUST be installed first, then a special thimble tool used to install the lower carbon dam seal. If the carbon dam is installed first the top seal WILL NOT go over the carbon dam. Best get the head repaired so the top seal will hold. Also note the hold down clamp springs, sometimes three, and sometimes one MUST be in good shape to hold the injector down correctly. Make sure the bolt space is also in place as it limits the hold down clamping force on the injector seal. Make sure the injector locator strap in in place too.

 

[John Saeli]

I have a early 188d that's giving me fits.
I replaced a head gasket a couple years ago. It ended up being the one size fits all gasket which doesn't work on the narrow flange. Blew that gasket at start up. Was referred to talk with Dale Weiss and he set me on the right path to the correct gasket. Man was that thing expensive.
Head was sent off and checked with new valves installed. I put it all back together and it just didn't run right and smokes.
While idling with the exhaust manifold off if I crack the throttle it will blow smoke out of#1.
Almost seems like it has a miss. When I crack injector lines it alters the idle.
I have noticed a small amount of coolant in the oil in the past. I've done a oil change recently and will check again soon to see if that is happening now.
I done a compression test and all cylinders are right at 350.
Today I done a smoke test through the injector holes with all rockers removed. The only smoke I saw was a very small amount from the oil fill tube when on#1 and#2. Looks like a little getting by the rings. I wouldn't think that would be enough to make it run rough. I have noticed that while running if I pull the dipstick it will sling oil. Never done that before.
I have checked pump timing and it's correct.
I'm going to do some more checking on the cooling system next I guess.
What an I missing or does anyone have any ideas. I imagine I'm in for a rebuild in the near future.

No way, unless engine was replaced, does a 430 w/ that serial number and pencil injectors have the small flange sleeves!

 

[Ozarks Hunter]

Engine could have been changed I guess as I don't know anything about the tractor before my grandpa had it. I wouldn't even mess with it if it wasn't his old tractor.
Here is a picture I found in my phone that I probably had sent to Dale. I assume it's showing the old gasket or the replacement that was sent.