1939 9N wont start

[gluther]

Help. Looking for thoughts, suggestions, ideas. Here is my situation. My tractor started everytime on the second try. first try with choke, then second without. after sitting for a week or so i tried to start it like usual. No go on the second try and now it just turns over without even a pop. I replaced the carburator thinking it was a fuel problem since when i removed the fuel bowl drain plug no steady flow of fuel. Then i pulled the distributor and found two things. the points were pretty bad and the bolt holes were stripped. I repaired the threads and installed a new distributor. adjusted timing and point gap new wires and plugs. I have spark at all four cylinders and believe i have fuel. Still no pop even with using starting fluid. Can timing change internally in the engine? How to test? Im the third owner i believe and have no past history, so no idea of what repairs have been done. Thanks in advance for any help.

Gregg

 

[souNdguy]

ok.. so you have spark at all 4 plugs for real.

this is a front mount and so that means that your cam is turning.

pull your plugs thumb check each cyl to see if you have any compression. it's possible that you have stuck valves.

 

[Den N Ms]

Gluther,You say, when i removed the fuel bowl drain plug no steady flow of fuel.
Check and clean all 3 screens,tank,sediment bowl,and arbitrator inlet.Will the spark jump a 1/4" gap? if it will you have flooded your new plugs,replace them with autolite #437 plugs,or you can try to burn off the crap fuel flooded plugs with a propane torch.Best to just replace them and save the old new ones for later and switch them one at a time after it is running to clean them up.
You know that the distributor shaft only goes on one way (right) or a broken distributor will happen ,you talk about striped mounting holes. Are the plug wires on correct firing order and copper wires.
Good spark at the right time,good fuel at the right amount and good compression should yield a running engine.

 

[Flavorofthemonth]

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[Flavorofthemonth]

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[Jim L WA]

Hi Gregg, You say you now have spark at all four cylinders. Is that right at the spark plugs or are you using a spark checker. If it's right at the plugs, then they aren't flooded. It won't respond to starting fluid, which is strange. Do you have the choke and throttle linkage hooked back up correctly? Also Den sent the drawing of the firing order. Double check that. Soundguy said to do a finger test for compression, Have you done that? I can't see valves sticking on all four cylinders at once though. As for your question about timing changing internally. Only if the cam shaft or crank gear broke teeth, but like one of them said, if you getting spark at all four cylinders, then the cam shaft is turning. You can rotate the engine to the point where you feel compression on number 1 cylinder and then pull the cap off the distributor and see whee the rotor is pointing.

 

[Roger in Iowa]

Hope he didn't put the long bolt in the short hole for the distributor and ruin the gear drive?

 

[Roger in Iowa]

Or is that for the governor?

 

[HFJ]

(quoted from post at 18:03:53 11/28/18) Or is that for the governor?

governor for sure, dunno about dist.

 

[wsmm]

I don't know if it's cold where your at or not. Do yo have an oil batch air cleaner. If so have you checked the oil xup. I had a similar problem with my 2N, turned out there was ice in the bottom of the oil cup. Cleaned it out and it started up and ran smooth.

 

[Ed S.]

I can't see valves sticking on all four cylinders at once though.

That's exactly what happened to mine. A finger compression check will confirm or deny in less than 15 minutes (not counting the time to find your spark plug wrench).

es

 

[jon corbett]

have lost oil seal at pistons?pull plugs/squirt of oil in all 4 cylinders.spin to coat cylinder walls.reinstall plugs.start.

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley]

Is your 9N 6V/POS GRN or 12V/NEG GRN? Either way, is the battery good? It must sustain a full charge under load to be efficient. Often times when your starter just click, click, clicks it is due to a weak/discharged battery. Simply 'charging' it doesn't mean it is good if won't sustain the charge under load. Take it to starter shop to be tested. If it is bad, replace it. Next would be the wiring. You say it is a '39 9N. The first original 9N's used a small 2-wire/2-Brush Generator, 'B' Circuit design, and a Voltage Regulator. By early 1940 they went to a (still small) generator, now a 1-Wire/3-Brush unit, 'A' circuit, and now used the round can cutout. If you have a 12V switch over job, you should have a 12V battery, NO generator or VR/cutout, and an alternator. You need the OEM Ballast Resistor in the circuit as well, wired as original. With 12V, if you have the OEM 6V coil, you need to add an external 1-OHM ceramic in-line resistor, or, if you switch it to a 12V coil, eliminate the ceramic resistor altogether. Start with a good battery. Next, move on to verifying wiring. Here are wiring electrical diagrams of the OEM 6V/POS GRN system for 9N/2N models:

Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)

 

[gluther]

(quoted from post at 08:17:08 11/28/18) ok.. so you have spark at all 4 plugs for real.

this is a front mount and so that means that your cam is turning.

pull your plugs thumb check each cyl to see if you have any compression. it's possible that you have stuck valves.

Thanks for the idea i will check that this weekend.

 

[gluther]

Thanks. I ordered a crank handle so i can turn the engine over with out wearing out the starter, plus have better control over the turning of the engine. Will check compression and rotor location to make sure it lines up with correct cylinder.

 

[gluther]

Thanks my 9N is still the 6 volt positive ground and yes I put in a new battery. She turns over like a champ. Most parts were really old when i bought her last year but she started every time till a few weeks ago. I had replaced the distributor cap cause it had a crack. I replaced the spark plug wires cause they were really old and brittle. She still started and ran fine. Then a few weeks ago after sitting she wouldnt start not even a pop or fart. I checked for fuel and it seemed like the carb was all gunked up so i installed a new one plus a new sediment bowl so i could rebuild the old. Still no go. Then i replaced the spark plugs. still no go. Then i pulled the distributor and noticed the points were pretty worn. I installed a new distributor so i could rebuild the old and have a spare. So new carb, distributor, plugs, wires, coil, sediment bowl/shut off valve, cap, points, rotor. timing set the best i can tell and plugs and points gapped correct.

 

[gluther]

Alright here is what i found. The first compression test came back as follows. cyl 4 =29lbs. 3 = 29 lbs. 2 = 29 lbs. 1 = 0 lbs. I put oil in each cylinder and let it sit for and hour then turned the engine over. I put more oil in each cylinder and waited a day. Oil came out of the carberator and leaked from somewhere in the front lower part of the engine. I tested compressions and got as follows. cyl 4 = 60lbs. 3 = 29lbs. 2 = 25lbs. 1 = 0 lbs. I burnished the new points. I checked spark at the spark plugs all good, tried starting again and got gas dripping out the of carb so I know i have gas and spark. The distributor bolts were stripped. I can tell that it wasnt fulling engaged with the front of the cam. The grove in the cam shows signs of knicks. [b:2d86a8846d]It it possible that while running the last time and with the distributor bolts stripped the distributor moved away enough and the cam moved out of time. [/b:2d86a8846d]

 

[HFJ]

i can't answer the timing question - but as far as compression goes, u do realize those numbers after u added oil to the cylinders are horrible, right?

fwiw, gas dripping out of carb normally = too much choke used.

just my opinion, but i'd say your engine is in [i:40917cb89a]serious[/i:40917cb89a] need of a rebuild.

 

[gluther]

yes i figured so on the compression numbers. either a valve job or a total rebuild is needed. Still stumped why she wont start thats why im leaning towards a timing issue. Cause even with bad compression she should run just not have any power. If valves are stuck maybe loosing combustion air right out the exhaust and so no pop. Going to try soaking cylinders with oil again for a day or so and see what happens. Always open to suggestions from the group. Appreciate all input.

 

[HFJ]

how fast is it turning over? is your battery fully charged? should be ~ 6.4 volts.

in a pinch, u could try swapping in a 12 volt battery to test - just don't turn any lights on.