(800) 853-2651
SHOP NOW

1958 ford 641 workmaster, oh boy, what a pita!

B

Bolt-Action

New User
Okay, I apologize now for the long post, but bare with me.
I've got a 58 Ford 641 WM that I'm at my wits end with and I'm ready to push it off a cliff I'm so dang frustrated!
Several months ago I picked up my 58 641 WM with a Du-Al 150 loader than was running-barely for $1500, not the prettiest thing but a "working" project.
Owner told me it needed a tune-up as it was running rough and hard starting.
I got it home and immediately replaced the; points (.025), condenser, plugs, plug wires, coil, oil, oil filter, fluids, several hydro lines, rotor, dizzy cap, cleaned air filter etc.
It seemed to improve it quite abit for maybe a day of two, then it started running rough and hard starting again.
I changed the condenser (I suspected it was faulty out of the box) and pulled and rebuilt the carb. It seemed to help for about a month and I noticed some garbage in the sediment bowl, so I pulled the gas tank (found some interesting things lol) and cleaned it out and rebuilt the carb again, blew out the fuel lines, checked and cleaned the fuel screens, changed plugs, points, condenser, rotor, ignition switch (the switch was real loose and sloppy) etc. and again, it seemed to improve it and the 641 ran great for maybe a month maybe 2.
Went out to start it and use it (it gets used about 2-3x a week), it began idling extremely rough, almost like an occasional miss. And then it died and would not start, it wouldn't even try to start, just crank.
I knew it was getting fuel so I opened up the dizzy, the points looked ok, but I replaced them and the condenser and rotor again when I noticed the copper "strap" that connects the points and condenser to the dizzy stud (that the coil wire hooks to) was broken and cracked in half. I looked for a small, thin sheet of copper to make my own strap but couldn't find any copper sheets. So I grabbed a spare big block mopar distributor I had laying around and pulled the wire out of it. I inserted it into my 641's dizzy and made sure the rubber isolator was in place to prevent any contact and hooked the condenser terminal and the terminal on the mopar wire to the points and hooked the other end of the wire to the "Dist" side of the coil. There's no metal contact, the wire is ran straight from the points (with condenser), out the dizzy to the coil.
I attempted to start the 641 today and it fired right up and ran like a champ for about 30 secs then died and it would not fire again, it didn't even try to fire again. I replaced the condenser again and attempted to fire the 641 again and it fired right up again for about 10secs, and would not fire. I again suspect I blew the condenser (?).
Do I HAVE to use that thin copper strap? What am I missing?
Thanks for any assistance or help, I'm smacking my head against the wall with this thing.
 
Running the wire all the way to the points (eliminating the copper strap) is just fine. Where are you buying your points, condenser, etc? I hope not at TSC.
 
I've been buying them from a place here called "Orschelin's" town and country. Similar to a tractor supply, but a different company.
The brand name on the packages is "CALCO".
 
(quoted from post at 02:35:46 08/17/13) I've been buying them from a place here called "Orschelin's" town and country. Similar to a tractor supply, but a different company.
The brand name on the packages is "CALCO".
Click to expand...

I would go to either NAPA and get "Echlin" brand points and Condenser. Or even better yet to a quality auto parts store that sells "Standard Ignition" brand points and condenser. "Blue Streak" will be the top grade premium model within the Standard Ignition brand but the base grade is okay too.
 
Ill hit up a auto parts store tomm, advance or autozone.
Would you happen to know the part #'s for them? Or can an auto parts store look them up?
I appreciate the assist, I'm fed up and willing to try just about anything, even if you told me to hold my breath, stand on one leg and stick my thumb in my tractors tailpipe lol.
 
Probably the same chinese junk TSC sells. As the other guy said- find some Echlin or Blue Streak parts.
 

I've checked out autozone, advance and o'reily websites, but I'm not seeing any ford tractor reference.
Is there a specific 50's car or truck that the part #'s will cross to the 641?
 
O'reillys keeps paper catalogs on hand. The can drag them out and look up a part if necessary. Have done it several times.

Garry
 
Try this number for Napa points: Standard Ignition #FD-8081

I believe they're Echlin. You'll notice they're better just looking at them. Stay away from the cheap Chinese junk points.
 
From Soundguy:

Side-Mount Distributor: 8n thru 4 cyl thousand series

gap points to .025

Points:
NAPA #CS749
NAPA HEAVY DUTY PIERCED (ventilated) #CS753
Standard Ignition #FD-8081
Standard Ignition Blue Streak #FD-8081X (Premium)
Condensor:
NAPA #FA66
Standard Ignition #FD-75
Standard Ignition Blue Streak #FD75X (Premium)
Rotor:
NAPA #FA67
Standard Ignition #FD-108
Distributor Cap:
NAPA #FA352
Standard Ignition #FD-128

side mount points hold down screws #8-32 X 3/16
FORD AUTOMOBILE dealer parts counter. come with built-in lockwasher. p/n 355047-S7 (#8-32 X 0.19)

All 4 cyl models can use AL-437 or champion H12 spark plugs instead of OEM Champion H10 or AL 216 plugs
 
About ten years ago I put Pertronix electronic ignition in my 961 and have never had to touch it since and it sits outdoors year round. Fires off on the first compression stroke.
 
You cant blow a condenser.Ford cars 49 up used the same points and condenser.Buying a pile of parts never fixes a problem.The 640 has a simple ignition,no resistors to give trouble.The coil has the same part # as 49 up cars and trucks.As for the copper strap you can make them from a bit of copper flashing.Home Depot sells a small square for 1.00.Make the holes with a leather punch.A good mechanic should own a set of gasket punches.When you work on the Ford distributor put a piece up paper towel in that hole in the distributor plate so you wont lose screws and nuts down the hole.STOP buying piles of parts.
 
Before you put in another set of points, check for battery voltage at the coil as soon as it dies or now if it's not running.
 
]

Are you running a six volt battery or a twelve volt battery?

I worked on a Ford that would die suddenly. Turned out that it had a bunch of hardware that had fallen down into the distributor under the points plate. It would bounce around in there and jam up. I would suggest pulling the distributor and taking it apart on the bench.

Joe
 
(quoted from post at 19:50:08 08/16/13)
I've checked out autozone, advance and o'reily websites, but I'm not seeing any ford tractor reference.
Is there a specific 50's car or truck that the part #'s will cross to the 641?
Click to expand...

You are wasteing your time going to auto zone or advance auto for tractor parts.Napa echlin or Blue Streak are your best bet.
 
Ill try to answer everyone's questions in this post, sorry if I was confusing or I forgot to include pertinent info.

Thanks everyone for your input!! Keep it coming, if I have to tear this 641 down to the frame to fix, ill do it lol.

36 coupe,
What should I do?
Something on this dang 641 needs fixed/replaced, and I don't have a clue what it is, I've replaced just about everything I can think of, SEVERAL TIMES, what do YOU suggest I do?
It seems you're telling me to not buy parts, but it also seems you're not giving me any direction to go either. And I don't think looking at it, is going to fix it lol I've tried that already.
The only suggestion I'm gathering from your post is,
Info I'm already aware of, but its appreciated. Or buy a copper piece, which, if that'll fix this dang tractor, I'm all over it.
I'm not being negative or hostile, and I appreciate your input, everybody's input, thanks.

I'm running a 6v battery.

There's nothing under my dizzy, she's free and clear.

When I replace the condenser, she runs, runs briefly, then I have no spark, I replaced the condenser again and it started and ran briefly and then no spark.
Just to clarify.
I've got no spark currently at the plugs, plug wires, coil, or dizzy.
(I'm sure if I replace the condenser again she'll fire again breifly, but I'm thinking the bigger issue is possibly the points(?)

Don't go to ANY auto parts store?
Avoid them all? Or just don't go to autozone and advanced?
What about o'reily? I noticed you mentioned Napa, but I thought the Echlin brand went down the tubes?
Hey, if it worked for you, I'll do it, heck ill buy 2 sets, one from each if it'll fix her.
 
I have a 641 that quit getting spark. Soundguy suggested I use jumpers to track down the problem. The wire between the coil and dizzy was broken.. still had three strands of wire so it would read ok with the meter. It was broken inside, not exposed. Each time you change the parts you might be moving it enough to make a connection. I would suggest you work on getting a constant spark.
 

Good idea!
That's something I haven't checked yet, makes sense, this mopar wire that was in this 383 BB dizzy is orig (1967) it's possible it's, broken, corroded etc.

Thank you
 
Do you have a manual? Get one. Follow the trouble shooting guide and be systematic in your approach. If there is no troubleshooting guide for your model, go online and find something similar. Stop buying/replacing parts until you know for a fact they are bad. Replacing bad parts is expensive enough.

Sorry I have no specific advise for you. Only you can diagnose the problem. Otherwise, take the tractor to someone who can.
 

Okay, update;

So, I pulled the wire (18g) I installed yesterday in place of the copper strap.
I installed a brand new wire (16g) and hooked it up.
Before buttoning up the dizzy, I turned the key on and hit the start button, I visually saw and heard, the spark, large blue spark along with the "crack" sound.
So I thought, "that's it"...
Not quite,
I buttoned up the dizzy, turned the key on, hit the start button and she instantly hit, and fired up and ran for 5 secs...
Now I have no spark, again.
 
Before you start to work on your tractors electrical system, You need tools like these;

.
mvphoto19922.jpg


And then you need to go through your tractors electrical system one step at a time. Starting with the battery. Does it show 6.3 volts across the terminals?

You may still be dealing with a mechanical problem! But, lets start there.

Joe
 

It's fine I didn't take any offense to coupe's post, I'm just grateful for any input and help.
I've gone thru my service/owners manual and when I didn't see anything specific about spark appearing/disappearing I came here, to the experts.

Hey joe, I have most everything you've shown in your pic, spools of wire, various cases of electrical connectors, shrink tubing, test light, multimeter, couple kinds of stripping/crimping tools etc.
About the only thing I don't have is the large assortments if alligator clips.

On a 6v coil, does someone know the proper ohms between the 2 terminals?
And the ohms between either terminal and the tower?
Thanks
 
Others can help you better with your electrics than I.
I'm only good for answering questions like what color should I paint my Blue tractor, how many pistons are in my 4 cylinder engine and why did I buy a darned Ford.
 
(quoted from post at 12:49:04 08/17/13) Others can help you better with your electrics than I.
I'm only good for answering questions like what color should I paint my Blue tractor, how many pistons are in my 4 cylinder engine and why did I buy a darned Ford.
Click to expand...

Lol
This is my 1st ford tractor,
I also have a JD 3020, aside from having to replace the dang rock bar seals every 6months, its been a good tractor. My only complaint, is JD parts are expensive, and I think I'm paying extra for the name on the box.
This ford is relatively cheap in comparison to the JD.
 
I don't see where you've ever told us if this is still an original 6V Positive Ground or converted 12V Negative Ground electrical. Regardless of which it is run a wire directly from the "hot" (not grounded) battery post directly to the small post on the battery that is NOT connected to the distributor. You just bypassed a bunch of wiring and the key switch. This tractor doesn't have an automotive style key switch (Off-Run-Start), does it? Now see if it will start and run. If it does your problem is in the switch or wiring.
 
(quoted from post at 15:18:42 08/17/13) I don't see where you've ever told us if this is still an original 6V Positive Ground or converted 12V Negative Ground electrical. Regardless of which it is run a wire directly from the "hot" (not grounded) battery post directly to the small post on the battery that is NOT connected to the distributor. You just bypassed a bunch of wiring and the key switch. This tractor doesn't have an automotive style key switch (Off-Run-Start), does it? Now see if it will start and run. If it does your problem is in the switch or wiring.
Click to expand...

Hey Texas, yes this is the orig 6v set up.
The keyed ignition just has off and on, then the push button starter.

I'm a little confused by your post partner,
You say connect a wire from the hot side of the battery to...the small post on the battery?
I'm guessing you're saying run a line from the hot side if the battery to the battery side of the coil (?) correct?
 
Lets start from the beginning.Put the transmission in neutral.Turn on the ignition, crank the engine and watch the ammeter.It should flick from 0 to 4 amps discharge.This proves the ignition switch is ok, the coil is not open and the wire connection at the distributor is not open or shorted and the points are opening and closing. Turn the ignition off.On coil resistance the primary should read 1.5 to 2 ohms, secondary will read about 10,000 ohms.If you get an open reading the coil is dead.Now turn the engine until the points are open or insulate them with some paper.Take the center wire out of distributor and put it 1/4 inch away from the block.Now take an insulated screw driver and short the points.When you remove the short you should see a spark from the coil wire.A good Ford ignition coil can put out an inch long spark.You can get a spark without a condenser in the circuit but the spark will be weak.Bad condensers are rare but it happens.The best thing you can do is go to a used book store and buy an old copy of Motors Manual from the 50s.Study the electrical section until you understand basic ignition.
 
You can see if any screws or nuts have been left under the points plate.Its cut away so you can see the copper strap.
 

There's nothing under the points plate...

There is no copper strap, I replaced it with a wire because the copper strap was broken...[/list]
 
(quoted from post at 18:52:36 08/17/13) Should have read Ultradog sleeps with a 12 volt battery.My third beer this month.
Click to expand...

I figured that's what you meant, I was going to make a wise @$$ comment about it being "shocking"
 
If this is a original system your battery will be hooked up + to ground and - to the key switch. Your coil will be hooked up + to the distributor and - to the key switch.

We will assume your battery is fully charged and you have a good connection to ground but you may want to check this.

Take the wire off - coil. Now run a jumper wire from - battery to - coil. You have just bypassed the entire wiring system on the tractor.

Now rotate the motor crankshaft till the points are in the open position. With a 6v test light or volt meter check for 6 volts at the points where the wire hooks to them.

If you have 6 volts here rotate the motor till the points are closed and remove the large wire from the center of distributor cap. With a screw driver open the points making very sure you only touch the rub pad on the points as not to ground them out. Every time you open the points the large wire from the coil should fire. You can check the color of this fire by holding the wire end close to a metal ground part.

If you did NOT have 6 volts at the points when open. Remove the condenser and check again.
6 volts now..... replace condenser it is shorting to ground.

Still do not have 6 volts at the points when open and condenser removed.
Remove the wire from the points and check voltage.
Got 6 volts at the wire now.... replace points they are shorting to ground.

Still do not have 6 volts at the wire when removed.
Remove the other end of the wire from the coil and check voltage at + coil.
Got 6 volts now..... replace the wire or check the insulator on side of distributor because it is shorting to ground.

Still do not have 6 volts at + coil.
Replace coil.

One other check you can do is with the wire and condenser off points and points closed is to check ohms between where to wire hooks to points and a ground out side the distributor such as the engine block. This makes sure your points are well grounded.

You have now checked the entire primary system. The motor may not start after doing all these test but at least now we know to look in the secondary system for the problem.
 
Yes, I meant to type "small post on the coil". John in La has provided you with a troubleshooting guide.
 
I would put a jumper wire across the ignition switch on that tractor.That will check the switch.They can get touchy.Dufus may have powered the head lights through the ignition switch.
 
Sometimes a coil works okay until it warms up.

I've often short-wired an ignition system using a 12 volt battery and using a 12 volt trouble light for a resistor. You can also borrow a coil from something else that runs okay.
 
(quoted from post at 09:37:14 08/18/13) Sometimes a coil works okay until it warms up.

I've often short-wired an ignition system using a 12 volt battery and using a 12 volt trouble light for a resistor. You can also borrow a coil from something else that runs okay.
Click to expand...

Okay, been going thru the 641 today and had a quick question before continuing;

I'm getting 1.3 ohms between the 2 posts on the coil
And I'm getting 5000 ohms between either post and the tower.

This is less than you quoted me coupe, but is the coil ok?
 
I very seldom if ever recommend checking a coil by the ohm reading. To many variables.
The condition of the battery in the ohm meter will effect ohm meter readings.
Most digital ohm meter are not very accrete.
The ohms will change as the temperature changes.

And most of all it causes arguments when you question advise given by others; especially when you can find the same bad advise on many other web sites. Many Many people say the resistance should be in the 1.75 range. Might be because coils made today fit that range as I do not have access to newer coils because I own a diesel tractor. But it ultimately comes down to WHO IS WRONG AND WHO IS RIGHT.

So I say lets see what FORD says in their service manual.

a125570.jpg

a125571.jpg


a125572.jpg


But lets assume I am wrong (even know the Ford manual backs me up) and coupe and many others are right.
As you lower the ohms (resistance) in the system you increase the amps to the points and condenser. With a low ohm reading you could be pitting the points and blowing out the condenser from to much amps.

For the price of a new coil; the fact that they are very hard to check in a backyard garage; and the problems you have been having here is what I would do.
If I could not find any other problems with the test I have already given you I would go to Napa with my ohm meter in tow. Check the ohms on a new modern coil right at the counter. If it checks in the low range you know your old coil is good. But if it checks in the 1.75 range I would buy the coil and parts that match to that coil (condenser and points) I would only buy quality parts so now I have a matched set of good parts.

JMO. Its worth what you paid for it.
 
If you have it running,disregard. I don't see where you have replaced the ign. switch recently. They have been bad out of the box. Mine went bad soon after replacement. I can jiggle it and it will start. I have even wiggled it before the motor stopped and had it rev back up. Jump the switch and see if it runs. HTH
DON TX
 
Well a 640 does have a meter.Theres a 601 without a meter.Ive never seen a 641.In any case Ive had 2 induction ammeters since cars showed up with idiot lites around 1955.You can buy an induction meter for 7 bucks these days. If I ever get a 601 the gas gauge will be gone and the ammeter will be put back.Most posters cant read an ammeter any way but for those who can its a useful trouble shooting tool.
 
(quoted from post at 05:46:08 08/20/13) If I ever get a 601 the gas gauge will be gone and the ammeter will be put back.Most posters cant read an ammeter any way but for those who can its a useful trouble shooting tool.
Click to expand...

You will never find a "601" tractor. "600" and "601 are the series. For the "600" series there were models 620, 630, 640, 650 and 660. For the "601" series there were models of 611, 621, 631, 641, 651, 661, 671 and 681.
 
As for parts source, try this site, a dealer or another internet savvy partshouse. My Napa is near useless on my 66 Mustang so I use a dedicated Mustang website. Or try CNH website when you decide on the parts you need, but even they may come from offshore. Good parts/source are getting hard to come by.
 
Howdy all, sorry to bring back a dead thread here but I wanted to update it (yeah it's taken me quite a while lol, long story.)

My old user name was "BoltAction" but when I tried to sign in, I was told "inactive user", so I guess I had to register again (?)

So after taking everyone's recommendations and advice I still had no joy with my 641.
(Replaced ignition components with napa parts, double, triple and quadruple checked everything.)

Bottom line was just weird;
I had no spark at the plugs, BUT, if I pulled the dizzy cap and wiggled things like rotor etc. I'd have good, strong spark (for a short time) and then no spark again, that had me completely stumped, never seen anything like it.

So, after racking my brain trying to understand "why", it dawned on me, "what if, the dizzy shaft was worn out?" I pulled the dizzy completely out and sure enough, there was quite a bit of play up and down and a slight amount of play side to side.
I bought a complete, new dizzy (among other things mentioned in my post) dropped it in and she starts, runs and purrs like a kitten!!!!!
FINALLY! Sheesh!

I do have one question though, this 641 is still running the 6v system, 6v battery, generator, etc.
I haven't changed ANY wiring since I bought it,
But I noticed the - battery cable is grounded and the -wire from coil to dizzy.
I always thought these 601's were a positive ground?
Should I switch it?
Should it even be able to start/run hooked up - ground?
What could be damaged if I don't switch it (and keep it - ground)?
Tractor runs great right now, but I want to make sure it's wired correctly.
Thanks guys!
 
Yes it was originally + ground and yes it will run the way it is.
Is it charging the battery?
If it is, I'd probably leave well enough alone.
If you want to change it back, you just need to reverse
the battery and polarize the generator in the right polarity.
Not much difference either way really.
 
(quoted from post at 02:56:48 01/26/14)
Thanks Royse,
I may switch it just so it's wired correctly.
Click to expand...
lutton for punishment, huh? If it ain't broke, don't fix it........not........If it ain't broke, 'fix' it until it is broke! :roll:
 
(quoted from post at 12:39:14 01/26/14)
Lol something like that.
I'm just concerned that its going to burn/short something out with it wired wrong.
Click to expand...
here is nothing 'wrong' in the least about it. It just isn't like the factory did it.
 


Thanks guys, I'll leave her be then, she's running well, so I'll just put her to work.

Besides, the next thing I DO need to fix is;
Why the 3pt won't even lift a round bale, it's always something.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

S
copper strip in distributor got me!
Replies
3
Views
370
steve in ok
S
T
641 Workmaster hydro rebuild question
Replies
3
Views
191
twayne88
T
D
3000 gas tractor running rough
Replies
8
Views
228
Sean in PA
S
R
1955 ford 172 gas engine won’t start
Replies
18
Views
323
rdjinny
R
R
641 Sheetmetal on NAA/Jubilee
Replies
4
Views
316
Kirk-NJ
K
Tractor Parts Tractor Manuals

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Copyright © 1997-2024 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters
Website Accessibility Policy

Back
Top