1962 Case 431 Starting / Fuel Problems

[Gingersnap Farm]

Welllll... of course right after I got done sharing the good news about our previous repairs, now I appear to have some new problems. I had a job that I really needed to get done this evening (even rented an implement) as I have a deadline of Sunday for a very important project, but it doesn't look like that's happening now.

So, bottom line is that the tractor doesn't want to start. I noticed that it was a little harder starting recently (a little boggy for the first couple seconds before it gets going), but now it doesn't want to go at all. After trying everything else I could think of, I settled on the fact that it was almost definitely the fuel system. Diagnostics went as follows:

1. Plenty of fuel (Diesel) in the tank.
2. Plenty of gravity pressure in the fuel lines before and after the fuel filter.
3. Cracked all the fuel lines on the injector return rail - then actually pulled the rail off and tried to crank it over. No Fuel.

Welp.... to me that seems like injection pump issues. I assume that either a fuel line is blocked or the pump itself decided to go bad. I'm very much a newbie mechanic here and I don't have a great indoor space to work on any of this stuff - neither do I have much of a budget to fix it... Are there any other things I should try to get fuel going or are my options at this point to pretty much take the injection pump off and send it in to a shop to have it checked out?

The weirdest thing to me is that I just ran the tractor without issues about 3 days ago (other than the slightly boggy initial start), and it ran just fine and shut off as usual. Yesterday I couldn't start it, but I figured that was because it was cold and I hadn't let the block heater run long enough. Today I ran the block heater all day and it was still obviously not enough now that I know it isn't getting fuel.

During this whole process I have also found out that I have at least one bad glow plug and potentially a bad glow plug solenoid... Any recommendations on parts there would also be appreciated.

 

[pcrh]

Hi:

The symptoms you see help to determine the fix. The fix is different for gas unit and diesel unit. Without reviewing your other posts I will assume diesel.

While cranking the starter, no smoke from the exhaust implies no fuel, white smoke indicates fuel but insufficient heat to burn fuel, and black smoke indicates fuel and poor heat so fuel burns but has no ignition.

Diesels need crank speed to create heat and fuel to start. An alternate is a pull start. Put tractor in high gear, and have someone tow tractor then pop the clutch

 

[Jim.ME]

You have a diesel, but it would be well to always include that when you start a thread as they were available in both gas and diesel.

Do you have fuel flow all the way to the injection pump inlet?

Make sure the fuel shutoff cable is moving the shut off arm all the way to the run position.

The injector return rail won't necessarily show fuel flow, so that is not a good tell of anything. You need to crack the high-pressure lines at the inlet of each injector to check to see if the pump is supplying fuel to them while the engine is being cranked (fuel shut off in the run position and throttle at least half open).

 

[Fritz Maurer]

I would guess if it was running 3 days ago, you have a fuel line, return or supply, with a small leak and it is air- locked. Recent starts that sound /feel mushy also point to air.

Cracking injector lines is the way to get it started, but it takes awhile for the fuel to get there. No fuel at the injectors when the lines are loosened is not automatically injector pump trouble. Does this thing have a hand pump? Pumping while cranking can speed up the bleeding process.

 

[Liquid_wrench]

Is the cable for the fuel shut off working? When you push in on the cable is it moving on the pump. I've had trouble with mine before and had to move it forward by hand to get the fuel flowing. If my shut off cable isn't all the way forward, my tractor runs slower. I have the 530 diesel 1963.

 

[John Saeli]

Hi:

The symptoms you see help to determine the fix. The fix is different for gas unit and diesel unit. Without reviewing your other posts I will assume diesel.

While cranking the starter, no smoke from the exhaust implies no fuel, white smoke indicates fuel but insufficient heat to burn fuel, and black smoke indicates fuel and poor heat so fuel burns but has no ignition.

Diesels need crank speed to create heat and fuel to start. An alternate is a pull start. Put tractor in high gear, and have someone tow tractor then pop the clutch

Why "POP" the clutch??!! Would you "POP" the clutch if the engine is running? It doesn't make any difference which direction the power is coming from, the engine or the rear wheels. Slowly engage the clutch, always!!

 

[Fritz Maurer]

Jeez, calm down.....

 

[Gingersnap Farm]

Thanks everyone for the tips. I have also adjusted the post slightly to make it more obvious that this is a diesel.

So I confirmed that the fuel shut-off cable is working as expected with its full travel. No change when moving it by hand to fully open.

I couldn't easily get to the high pressure side without fully removing the return line so I did that and then loosened all the connections. Nothing. I even completely pulled one of the high pressure lines off an injector and still nothing. This is with the throttle way up on the dash.

After removing the low pressure line, a small amount of fuel is puking out of the fitting where that goes as I crank the engine but nothing substantial (it's the return anyway so I would expect that).

Seems to me that the injection pump is not pumping at all.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

If it is "puking" , like you say, we know that the supply pump for housing pressure is turning. " Puking " implies sporadic nature.... normally solid, air - free fuel should be merely overflowing out the top, not in fits and starts.

If there are bubbles in this so-called "puke" , air is getting into the system somehow. Yes, those pumps can fail suddenly, but if it is "puking" , there is at least enough going on in there for a potential start if conditions are right.

Im basing this theory on your description of its starting history : if it sits for a couple days, starting is some form of abnormal, but it will go. If left too long , it seemingly becomes air - locked.

 

[Gingersnap Farm]

If it is "puking" , like you say, we know that the supply pump for housing pressure is turning. " Puking " implies sporadic nature.... normally solid, air - free fuel should be merely overflowing out the top, not in fits and starts.

If there are bubbles in this so-called "puke" , air is getting into the system somehow. Yes, those pumps can fail suddenly, but if it is "puking" , there is at least enough going on in there for a potential start if conditions are right.

Im basing this theory on your description of its starting history : if it sits for a couple days, starting is some form of abnormal, but it will go. If left too long , it seemingly becomes air - locked.

It seems to be leaking fuel out of there at specific points in the cycle of the engine. If I crank it over, it dribbles out kind of in rhythm with the sound of the engine turning over. Once again, absolutely nothing on the high pressure side.

I've circled the fitting that fuel was coming out of before I put everything back together (can't leave it open or dust and grit will blow in) It was kinda dripping out, not in much volume at all. Just small increases and cuts off in pressure as the engine turned over. When not turning over, nothing comes out at all.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

It doesn't come out of there very fast, even with the engine running..... Just kinda floods out the top. Not very high pressure either, you can hold your finger on the port and kill the engine.

If that elbow, or any part of that return system were blocked , the pressure equalizes on both sides of th plungers and no fuel is delivered. However , that has always been a start and stall symptom, I didn't know it could keep it from starting entirely..... if that is indeed the case.

 

[Joe (Wa)]

Contact Dieseltech. He has been providing injector pump professional repair information on YT for ages. He was just on the Oliver forum half hour ago.
Link: Oliver Forum

 

[Gingersnap Farm]

Things have been so busy for the last couple of months that I haven't gotten the chance to work on the tractor until now. I did contact Dieseltech and am planning to have him clean out my pump, thank you.

I also ordered a reprint of the manual for my tractor, but I'm struggling to figure out exactly where the timing marks on the flywheel should be visible for proper timing of the engine before pump removal. Is the hole with the pointer in the attached pictures the correct spot? Is it supposed to be just open like that all the time? I do understand that I need to turn the engine over to actually see any marks, but I just wanted to confirm that I was looking in the correct place first.

Thanks for your help and happy new year!!

 

[Joe (Wa)]

Yes that is the correct hole. Clean the area put a little white paint on the flywheel timing marks area so it is easier to find next time. I use Wite-Out correction fluid for marking like that.

 

[Gingersnap Farm]

Yes that is the correct hole. Clean the area put a little white paint on the flywheel timing marks area so it is easier to find next time. I use Wite-Out correction fluid for marking like that.

Thanks Joe!

 

[rustred]

Welllll... of course right after I got done sharing the good news about our previous repairs, now I appear to have some new problems. I had a job that I really needed to get done this evening (even rented an implement) as I have a deadline of Sunday for a very important project, but it doesn't look like that's happening now.

So, bottom line is that the tractor doesn't want to start. I noticed that it was a little harder starting recently (a little boggy for the first couple seconds before it gets going), but now it doesn't want to go at all. After trying everything else I could think of, I settled on the fact that it was almost definitely the fuel system. Diagnostics went as follows:

1. Plenty of fuel (Diesel) in the tank.
2. Plenty of gravity pressure in the fuel lines before and after the fuel filter.
3. Cracked all the fuel lines on the injector return rail - then actually pulled the rail off and tried to crank it over. No Fuel.

Welp.... to me that seems like injection pump issues. I assume that either a fuel line is blocked or the pump itself decided to go bad. I'm very much a newbie mechanic here and I don't have a great indoor space to work on any of this stuff - neither do I have much of a budget to fix it... Are there any other things I should try to get fuel going or are my options at this point to pretty much take the injection pump off and send it in to a shop to have it checked out?

The weirdest thing to me is that I just ran the tractor without issues about 3 days ago (other than the slightly boggy initial start), and it ran just fine and shut off as usual. Yesterday I couldn't start it, but I figured that was because it was cold and I hadn't let the block heater run long enough. Today I ran the block heater all day and it was still obviously not enough now that I know it isn't getting fuel.

During this whole process I have also found out that I have at least one bad glow plug and potentially a bad glow plug solenoid... Any recommendations on parts there would also be appreciated.

She is not going to start if your preheated is no working. That simple.

 

[Gingersnap Farm]

Yes that is the correct hole. Clean the area put a little white paint on the flywheel timing marks area so it is easier to find next time. I use Wite-Out correction fluid for marking like that.

So I cleaned the area as well as I could and I noticed that my flywheel doesn't have the lines on it or the letters engraved to show TDC like the manual suggests. I do however see 5 very tiny dots - the dot in the middle appears to be smaller than the other 4.

When anywhere near this section of dots, the push rods for cylinder 1 are loose so I should be on the correct part of the stroke. Does this mean that my flywheel has alternate markings and the tiny center dot is the correct place for TDC?

Sorry for all the questions - I am brand new as a mechanic in these areas, haha. I hope everyone is having a great first day of the new year!


Edit: Also if there's only 5 dots, that would seem to indicate that it would be difficult to ascertain where 8 degrees before TDC is since there are no marks for it... I've heard that some older engines are just timed at TDC (this is a 1962). Would that apply here?

 

[Gingersnap Farm]

So I cleaned the area as well as I could and I noticed that my flywheel doesn't have the lines on it or the letters engraved to show TDC like the manual suggests. I do however see 5 very tiny dots - the dot in the middle appears to be smaller than the other 4.

When anywhere near this section of dots, the push rods for cylinder 1 are loose so I should be on the correct part of the stroke. Does this mean that my flywheel has alternate markings and the tiny center dot is the correct place for TDC?

Sorry for all the questions - I am brand new as a mechanic in these areas, haha. I hope everyone is having a great first day of the new year!


Edit: Also if there's only 5 dots, that would seem to indicate that it would be difficult to ascertain where 8 degrees before TDC is since there are no marks for it... I've heard that some older engines are just timed at TDC (this is a 1962). Would that apply here?

Apparently I just hadn't gone far enough in the stroke. I just found markings with lines that indicate degrees just like the manual suggests! Glad it was that simple.

 

[Gingersnap Farm]

Hey Everyone,

I have an update for you and a few more questions.

I got my injection pump back from Dieseltech the other day (he did a great job) and I was able to to get it back on the shaft successfully without damaging the umbrella seal (well, the second time. That's what I get for trying to do it the first time around sunset in 20 degree weather, haha).

I had the thought to check the rest of the fuel system between the tank and the injection pump before I put it all back together. Well it's a good thing I did because I found a pretty good amount of black crud in the filter and in the lines. The previous owner who had this tractor before me said he cleaned out the entire fuel system (I assume not counting the pump) himself about a year before I bought it. For it to be this dirty already, I have a feeling that there may have been diesel bug / algae in it that didn't completely go away with his previous clean.

Am I correct in assuming that the best way to clean it all out before re-assembly is to drain everything, flush it all with clean diesel, blow out the lines with an air compressor, replace the fuel filter, then reassemble, fill the tank completely with new fuel, and run a little injection cleaner through the whole thing (preferably with biocide?)? I'm guessing the problem happened to begin with because the tractor wasn't used enough.

Also, when I turn the shutoff petcock from the tank all the way off, it still leaks. I figure that while I have the tank empty, now is the best time to deal with that. Can it be repaired to seal properly, or should I just plan on fully replacing it?

 

[WilBury]

I've the same engine with same fuel system once it gets to the filters. Diesels require clean fuel, period. Starting at the tank is the way to go. Get it clean as you reasonably can. Maybe take that shutoff right off the tank so you can wash more dirt out of the tank. My shutoff was weeping, turned out it was loose where it threaded into the tank. Reinstalled with a good sticky sealer, not teflon. I like to keep a spare screen & gasket on hand. Anyway, every fall I clean all that stuff using garbage bags to direct drained fuel into a bucket. I replace fuel filters every fall as well. A little costly but I never have fuel problems, even at -40.
Of course, fuel quality can be another issue. I try to stock summer diesel (never bio), has more BTU's and I use Kleenflo conditioner.