2n Timing/points question?

[DZG300]

Our 2N is still 6V, for this reason... simplicity. And we have more modern tractors that we depend on in the winter. If it was already converted to 12V, I would leave it that way, since you do get better winter starting, and batteries are more available. (PS... even a 6V will have decent winter starting, if you keep it on a battery maintainer, a warm 6V battery outperforms a cold one by a long shot...)

But, we used to have a Ford 64x (I say x because someone painted over the serial number so well that I could never tell if it was a 640 or 641)... that we depended on year round, back then. We did a 12V conversion on it and added a resistor in-line with the original 6V coil. The person that bought that tractor is a friend of mine. He recently had some ignition problems... and at least he didn't have to figure out what was done to it... he called me, and I came over and checked it out for a cup of coffee... but... if he had to re-trace what I did... and buy the right coil/resistor... whatever... it could get messy.

This whole tractor is honestly kinda messy....

Had i had to do it over again i probably would of passed on it.

But...like my other various projects over the years it gives me an excuse to unhack it and do it atleast semi correct.

 

[will-max dairy]

This whole tractor is honestly kinda messy....

Had i had to do it over again i probably would of passed on it.

But...like my other various projects over the years it gives me an excuse to unhack it and do it atleast semi correct.

Yeah... tractor/vehicle wiring... I would rather troubleshoot/rework/solder a circuitboard with a thousand connections under a microscope, than futz around with a wiring harness... but I've done it... you'll be fine.

 

[lha]

1945 2N

Ive been having an issue where it would lose spark after running a bit. I changed coil/cap/rotor/wires and it fired up. Put hood back on and then it started, ran like garbage and died and wouldnt start. No spark again.

So i pulled the hood back off, pulled the distributor, and found a couple things...

First, the points were "offset", like only half of one point was touching the other point.

Secondly, the points will not open, and will not adjust. I think the cam and bushing both are shot. The resistor (12v conversion, ceramic style) startedxt
smoking while i was cranking on it....guessing this if from the points being stuck closed?

Anyways, i ended up ordering a new distributor, yes its chinese but im hoping it just gets me through untill whenever and ill rebuild the factory one and convert to electronic ignition.

But ive read and read and still dont fully understand how you adjust the timing? I want to make sure point gap/timing is correct on new distributor.

What do i turn or loosen?

Sorry if i sound ignorant but points are something ive never fooled with much at all.

My other question is with the points being stuck closed do you think i fried the new coil i bought?

The points today are "almost right" and often need to be adjusted to align properly. A good pair of needle nosed pliers and a bit of patience can work wonders.. If You're looking for good points,O'reilly's sells BWD [Standard} points and other parts for these tractors. You'll probably still have to adjust them.

 

[Btzj02]

I may have missed it in the thread but I am assuming you replaced the condenser? If loss of spark is your issue and it occurred in 30 seconds I would be encourage to quickly replace the condenser with a condenser from a running tractor. A known, (not "new"), good condenser is a great trouble shooting tool. (I don't have a front mount tractor so maybe it isn't as easy as I make it sound.) I hope you get it running the next time you get to work on it!

 

[olddavid]

Yeah... tractor/vehicle wiring... I would rather troubleshoot/rework/solder a circuitboard with a thousand connections under a microscope, than futz around with a wiring harness... but I've done it... you'll be fine.

The wiring harness on a 2N can't be too bad to trace through. Take your time and make sure you trace each wire accurately and draw a picture. You will likely need to tug wires at one end and see where the other end moves. Taking pictures with your cell won't do the trick though it's a good idea to do so. Hand draw each connection and mark the wire color if there is a difference. It would be helpful if you could post a picture of your drawing so that others can see if there are errors.

One other suggestion, with the ignition switch on check the voltage on the coil wire going to the distributor with points closed and with points open when it isn't starting. You should see approximately 12 volts with the points open. Any cheapo voltmeter will measure that. OOPS! Brain fade. Correction. The voltage should drop to near 0 volts with the points closed.

 

[will-max dairy]

I may have missed it in the thread but I am assuming you replaced the condenser? If loss of spark is your issue and it occurred in 30 seconds I would be encourage to quickly replace the condenser with a condenser from a running tractor. A known, (not "new"), good condenser is a great trouble shooting tool. (I don't have a front mount tractor so maybe it isn't as easy as I make it sound.) I hope you get it running the next time you get to work on it!

That is a great point... I know of a few people that have been bitten by the "brand new condenser doesn't work" bug, recently...

 

[olddavid]

The wiring harness on a 2N can't be too bad to trace through. Take your time and make sure you trace each wire accurately and draw a picture. You will likely need to tug wires at one end and see where the other end moves. Taking pictures with your cell won't do the trick though it's a good idea to do so. Hand draw each connection and mark the wire color if there is a difference. It would be helpful if you could post a picture of your drawing so that others can see if there are errors.

One other suggestion, with the ignition switch on check the voltage on the coil wire going to the distributor with points closed and with points open when it isn't starting. You should see approximately 12 volts with the points open. Any cheapo voltmeter will measure that. OOPS! Brain fade. Correction. The voltage should drop to near 0 volts with the points closed.

Oops! In my earlier post I said that the coil wire voltage should drop to about half the battery voltage with the points closed. I corrected the original post. It should drop to just above 0 with the points closed. Sorry about that.

 

[lha]

That is a great point... I know of a few people that have been bitten by the "brand new condenser doesn't work" bug, recently...

I put a new condenser on my 9n once and it didn't work,but while in the distributor,I found that the springy connector was too close and grounding. I put the old condenser on and it ran great.

 

[DZG300]

I am going to wire it up per the diagram i posted. I also ordered a new factory resistor as the old one looks a bit crusty.

Ill inform yall of the outcome

 

[bob p mn]

Just to add to the confusion, I went thru the same problems on a 2N recently and ended up installing a new 12v coil which I sourced from my local NH dealer it happened to be a A&I products coil. A&I says a 8Ne 10306 secondary resistor must be used. I talked to a guy who works on a lot of N's and he did agree about leaving the original dash mounted resistor and installing the 8ne 10306 which is a .6 to.8 ohm resistor. I did 2 different 2n's like that both running great. This all gets very confusing to say the least.

 

[olddavid]

Just to add to the confusion, I went thru the same problems on a 2N recently and ended up installing a new 12v coil which I sourced from my local NH dealer it happened to be a A&I products coil. A&I says a 8Ne 10306 secondary resistor must be used. I talked to a guy who works on a lot of N's and he did agree about leaving the original dash mounted resistor and installing the 8ne 10306 which is a .6 to.8 ohm resistor. I did 2 different 2n's like that both running great. This all gets very confusing to say the least.

Sounds like a plan but I'm wondering (if it's a point ignition) why you couldn't just install a 12 Volt resistor coil and be done with the external resistors.

Edit: Maybe no one makes a 12 Volt resistor coil for the front mounts that will eliminate the resistor?

 

[bob p mn]

These are the front mount distributor and did use a coil for 12 volts, and A&I specifies using this set up when using their coil. They also still sell a 6v coil, I never did check to see what they recommend for resistance on the 6v as this tractor had been converted years ago.

 

[DZG300]

Sounds like a plan but I'm wondering (if it's a point ignition) why you couldn't just install a 12 Volt resistor coil and be done with the external resistors.

Edit: Maybe no one makes a 12 Volt resistor coil for the front mounts that will eliminate the resistor?

The biggest reason is when i bought the new distributor and coil i bought 6v thinking that was what i needed based on the setup i had.

So im hoping it didnt totally fry the new coil, and wiring stuff is cheap lol.

At some point my plan is to rebuild the factory distributor and use electronic 12v ignition, but for now i just need it to run. I was hoping to use it for snow removal this year so i dont have to cart my quad back and fourth.

In theory i could use my cub for snow duty, but ive tried that in the past with....to put it nicely....less then stellar results

 

[olddavid]

The biggest reason is when i bought the new distributor and coil i bought 6v thinking that was what i needed based on the setup i had.

So im hoping it didnt totally fry the new coil, and wiring stuff is cheap lol.

At some point my plan is to rebuild the factory distributor and use electronic 12v ignition, but for now i just need it to run. I was hoping to use it for snow removal this year so i dont have to cart my quad back and fourth.

In theory i could use my cub for snow duty, but ive tried that in the past with....to put it nicely....less then stellar results

In my brief search I didn't a 12 volt front mount coil that eliminates the resistor even though one called it a 12 volt resistance coil. So, bob p mn has a scheme to do it though I am sure there are others. If your 6 volt coil isn't toast just find out what resistance(s) you need to use it. Yes, I would get it running with points. The initial timing set up will be easier. MHO once it's running with points why bother to go electronic?

 

[Jim.ME]

In my brief search I didn't a 12 volt front mount coil that eliminates the resistor even though one called it a 12 volt resistance coil. So, bob p mn has a scheme to do it though I am sure there are others. If your 6 volt coil isn't toast just find out what resistance(s) you need to use it. Yes, I would get it running with points. The initial timing set up will be easier. MHO once it's running with points why bother to go electronic?

It has been discussed before and the new 12 volt square coils for front mount distributors were designed for and need the original type of resistor that is/was mounted on the left backside of the dash panel. No porcelain ballast resistor.

 

[JMOR]

A 1,000 words of mostly BS "of my experiences". It is as simple as this Ford original:

https://imgur.com/2zKi5r4

and if want 12v, not much more:

https://imgur.com/4Pgqf6h

 

[DZG300]

This thing is continueing to kick my butt.

I wired everything how its supposed to be, replaced the factory resistor...now its smoking.

I got 12v from key switch to factory resistor, 8 volts from factory resistor to ceramic resistor, and 4.8ish volts from ceramic resistor to coil.

However....when i unhook the coil wire voltage everywhere jumps to 12v, and resistor no longer smokes.

Im at a loss here.

 

[Btzj02]

When you un-hooked the coil wire you interrupted current flow. Current is what causes the resistors to heat up and with no current flow the resistors will not heat up and all the voltages will read 12 volts as you have observed. I unfortunately do not have a front mount distributor or resistors so so I am not sure what "normal" voltage readings should be along the ignition circuit but if possible you want to do your measurements with points closed and then with points open to help in troubleshooting.

 

[Jim.ME]

This thing is continueing to kick my butt.

I wired everything how its supposed to be, replaced the factory resistor...now its smoking.

I got 12v from key switch to factory resistor, 8 volts from factory resistor to ceramic resistor, and 4.8ish volts from ceramic resistor to coil.

However....when i unhook the coil wire voltage everywhere jumps to 12v, and resistor no longer smokes.

Im at a loss here.

A resistor can make smoke when current is passing through it making heat, especially a new resistor.

When you turn the key on, if the points are closed, current will be flowing through the resistor, coil, and points to ground. When you unhook the power wire from the coil, you have broken the current flow to ground, so no current flow, no heat in the resistor. With out current flowing to something beyond the resistor, it does not create a voltage drop. Opening the points would break current flow, just as unhooking the wire to the coil did. That current flow, when left on for extended times, when the engine is stopped, can damage points and coils. The working action of the points opening and closing helps control temperature in the circuit.

Do you have a 12-volt coil or a 6-volt coil? The ceramic ballast resistor should only be needed if you have a 6-volt coil with a 12-volt system. The factory resistor is used with both the 6-volt and 12-volt coils.

 

[DZG300]

A resistor can make smoke when current is passing through it making heat, especially a new resistor.

When you turn the key on, if the points are closed, current will be flowing through the resistor, coil, and points to ground. When you unhook the power wire from the coil, you have broken the current flow to ground, so no current flow, no heat in the resistor. With out current flowing to something beyond the resistor, it does not create a voltage drop. Opening the points would break current flow, just as unhooking the wire to the coil did. That current flow, when left on for extended times, when the engine is stopped, can damage points and coils. The working action of the points opening and closing helps control temperature in the circuit.

Do you have a 12-volt coil or a 6-volt coil? The ceramic ballast resistor should only be needed if you have a 6-volt coil with a 12-volt system. The factory resistor is used with both the 6-volt and 12-volt coils.

Im running the 6v.

I tried to start it and it didnt fire. But seeing as how i got power to the coil im guessing the coil is fried from being wired wrong. (Before i just rewired it)

So what it sounds like i should do is get a new coil and put on, and get it started then see what the resistor does?

For the record it was the (new) factory resistor smoking, not the also new ceramic one.


The key was only on for maybe a total of 2 minutes broken up over several key on's to check voltages and stuff. Would that be enough to fry the also new points?