4020 Battery Setup

[sflem849]

Sorry for my ignorance, but I have been bothered by this question all day.
I was at the International trucks dealer and a guy was there getting cables made for his 4020. He said it was converted from 24 volt to 12 volt so it has different cables than JD carries.
I thought these tractors (4010/4020 all the way up to the 4840s) were parallel 6 volts to make a 12 volt system. Then I thought you would take two long skinny 12 volts and then run them in series to get more CCA when you switched you battery setup. Which way were they? What was the common conversion?
Thanks! This has been bugging me all day!!!

 

[Steve Okla]

I know the early model diesels had 24 volts for the starter and gen. and 12 vol;ts to the rest of the system. I have not dealt with them so I am sure someone else on here can explain just how it worked. I think this went for the 3010/20 and 4010/20's.

 

[tractor fixer]

early model 4020 had two twelve volts making 24.
not in the traditional way switch had 12- and 12+ on
each side. late model 4020 w/ controls beside
operator had two six making twelve v in the
traditional manner. same for 3020

 

[John T]

Actually, they used two twelve volt batteries in series to make up a 24 volt system for starting and battery charging (charged the 2 batteries in series at 24 volts), while the two 12 volt batteries, one Pos Ground the other Neg ground, were used to power up 12 volt devices like the lights.

The Stater and Generator were two wire 24 volt ELECTRICALLY ISOLATED FROM FRAME GROUND DEVICES.

Where the two batteries joined in the middle (+ on one - on other) that point is tied to frame ground so there is 12 volts to run the lights. One battery runs some lights at Neg ground while the other battery runs the rest of the lights at Pos ground.

Got it?? Clear as mud Im sure lol

A common conversion is to place the batteries in paralell and make the whole system 12 volts

John T

 

[tim s]

4010 diesels and 4020 diesels up to 1969 were 24 volt positive ground, useing 2-12 volt batterys, after that they were 12 volt neg.ground useing 2-6 volt batterys, there is a lot of debate about the converting them from 24 volt to 12 volt, but I'm a big fan for it, the only thing that I can see good about 24 volt systems is the fact of keeping one original...

 

[tim s]

Now "this" is more like it, some good,well centered answers...Mom would be proud of us....

 

[sflem849]

(quoted from post at 20:38:32 12/30/09) Now "this" is more like it, some good,well centered answers...Mom would be proud of us....

No kidding!!! It looks like I should buy a John Deere!!!!! Fiver guys all had the same answer in about a half hour. That is really great. Thank you for your rapid response and great answers.
You may have noticed I have been around a while, but I have never been on the JD section. I have three Farmalls and frequent that area of the site. Nothing against JD, but green paint usually cost a lot of green money. I was one bid away from a beautiful 720. Good rubber, nice paint, straight tin. It sold for $2250 about four years ago in SC Wisconsin. I never should have backed out, but I was 21 and...well you know how the story goes.

 

[61-4010]

I agree Tim....there is as much opinions on switching from 24 to 12 as there is Ford vs Chevy and Mac vs PC.

I have the 24v system still on my 1961 4010 and wouldn"t consider changing it to 12. Compared to my International 1466 which as 2 6 volts to make 12, the 4010 cranks a whole lot better especially during these cold winter mornings.

Personally, I think the 24v system gets a bum rap. Provided that it is maintained (good/tight cables, serviced generator, starter, etc) it works real well. Unfortunately I don"t think most people take the time to understand how that system works often times creating more problems than helping.

And yes...momma would be proud of this civil discussion.

 

[ET]

I agree the 24v system gets a bum rap. When properly maintained its a great system. Not many people understand how it works and therefor can't hit the critical maintainance points. Just look how so many people struggle with the idea of a positive grounded 6v or 12v system.

 

[tim s]

Yes, the biggest problem with the 24 volt system is that few people understand them. Years ago while I was waiting on a parts order at the Columbus Ohio Deere depot, I took an "unguided" trip through the back end of the whole goods warehouse, there back in the corner was an old service school sycmatic board of a 4020 24 volt system, the complete system lights to fuel gauge, this was in about 1977,, I spoke to our service rep. later and sugested that they bring that out for one of the service schools again to re-fresh and teach the newer guys (and me too at that time,,he stated that that was "history" and Deere was not going back there....And this kind of attitude is why the younger guys don't know about the older systems today...

 

[Anonymous-0]

Not 24 volt positive ground, 24 volt center ground. Giving a pair of 12 volt systems for lights and gauges, one positive ground and one negative ground. John T. knows correctly.

Its important to keep the loads on the two 12 volt circuits equal to charge the batteries equally.

Gerald J.

 

[tim s]

I call it Positive ground because about everything conected is positive ground even a radio if you can still find one to work on them, the "center" ground is a more precise way to discribe the system, which further complicates things to most people. Balanceing the draw on the batterys is inportant, I have worked on some where the custumer wired the extra cab lights off one of the fender light feeds,,it kept running that side battery down, he changed the battery and of course still had the same problem.The 24 volt system always seemed to complex, compared to the 12 volt systems that are more common to most.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Other than the deficiency of generator capacity. 10 amps at 24 volts takes hours of running to make up for a hard start, its not enough generation for chore tractor use, its original intent surely was for burning a full tank of fuel each start.

Gerald J.

 

[Anonymous-0]

The 24 volt system certainly does have a POSITIVE ground for starting, charging, and voltage regulation. It doesn't have a CHASSIS ground for starting, charging and voltage regulation. The lights, fuel gauge and remote outlet are 12 volt and use a chassis ground. If the lights, and remote outlet are not used, the tractor will start and charge just fine without the chassis ground. The fuel gauge wouldn't work however.

 

[sflem849]

Two questions
1 - More of just clarifying. The lights are hooked up with one wire to the hot on one battery and one wire to the neg on the outer battery??? How does this make 12 v and not 24 v?
2 - If the starter/gen are not chassis ground how do they isolate them? I guess not having a ground strap from the battery to the chassis would do that. I think I just answered my own question. So are there two wires that run the the starter and gen?
Thanks again!

 

[thurlow]

Hey Gerald, theoretically, you may be right; practically............I've got a '65 model (diesel, snychro) that my Dad bought new; until I sold the cows 4 years ago, it was a 'chore' tractor; typically ran about an hour every-other-day all Winter....for 40 years. NEVER had a problem with keeping the batteries charged. I'll admit it doesn't get 'that' cold here, lows typically in the teens or twenties and I used a block heater most of the time. Got 2 others that were basically used the same way, 'though they've not been 'here' quite as long. I guess if one ran the batteries completely down, it would take a while for them to recover, but who would do that to a tractor that HAD TO START.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Dear sflem,
I am impressed with your intellectual curiosity. When I was in high school(about 50 years ago) dad had a 24 volt 730 diesel. One day the starter just started cranking and burned up most of the wiring on the tractor. I went to the local John Deere dealer and told him I didn't understand the 24 volt system. Instead of blowing smoke, he said he didn't either, which I admired.

I decided that someday I would get a grip on it. I will be teaching a class on it this March in Davenport, Iowa at Gathering of the Green(a convention of JD collectors and enthusiasts). If you are interested try and come as we will have colored slides, handouts, etc.

You are on the right track in that the generator, atarter, and voltage regulator are hooked to each other with two wires and these components are isolated from the frame of the tractor. The Chevrolet Corvette with fiberglass body also uses a two wire system.

 

[tim s]

To explain it breifly there are two voltages going into the switches battery 'A' would be from the left battery,,battery 'B' would be from the right battery, each supplying 12 volts to the individual terminal, thus giveing each light 12 volts to operate, this is one of the reasons to keep the load balanced.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Lights like the batteries connect from a plus or minus 12 to ground. The center connection between the two batteries is grounded. That is the left bank of lights connects between one 12 volt line and ground (e.g. chassis) and the right bank of lights connects from the other 12 volt line to ground. So effectively the lights are in series across the series connected batteries, with the ground connection to pass the current when the currents don't exactly match.

Generators and starters are not inherently internally grounded, just most are made that way. Those for the new generation diesels are made with all the wiring and connections insulated and so have two terminals for power out (generator) and power in (starter) instead of one. So there are two power wires, with 24 volts between them one having plus 12 volts to ground the other having minus 12 volts to ground. The regulator has an extra terminal (the regulator case which is mounted on insulators) for this situation too.

Gerald J.

 

[tim s]

Yes,, all of that and that's why I change as many of these crazy systems over that I can

 

[Heath72]

Just a side note here...Last year I bought a 1968 4020D with a 12V system(two 6 volts run in series), and the batteries were 12(yes, I said twelve!) years old when I got it. I have since replaced them. I could not help but think that the electrical system must be PERFECTLY balanced to get that kind of service out of a battery.

The only other tractor I've seen come close to that was my grandfather's Moline 5 Star. It would keep a battery for about 10 years.

 

[Anonymous-0]

With two 6 volt batteries in a 12 volt system there are no 6 volt loads to unbalance the battery charging. There is no connected at the mid point of the two batteries but the other battery. Then if the batteries have equal capacity they can stay balanced for a long time.

The good quick and controlled (not over charging) of the alternator that was part of the 12 volt conversion added a great deal to the battery life.

Gerald J.

 

[David G]

Gerald is absolultey right. The tractor really has two 12V systems, one is positive earth, and one is negative earth. The lights are divided between left and right side, with the other accessories split out to balance the load. The generator and starter reference the 24V created by the sum of the two 12V systems.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Very interesting disc. How does one put a charger on the 'left hand' (starter side) batt. on a 24V system?

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 23:43:15 12/31/09) Just a side note here...Last year I bought a 1968 4020D with a 12V system(two 6 volts run in series), and the batteries were 12(yes, I said twelve!) years old when I got it. I have since replaced them. I could not help but think that the electrical system must be PERFECTLY balanced to get that kind of service out of a battery.

.

No balance concerns when the 24/12v split system is converted to 12V.

 

[Tx Jim]

(quoted from post at 12:06:51 03/20/10) Very interesting disc. How does one put a charger on the 'left hand' (starter side) batt. on a 24V system?

Hook red(+) charger cable to + battery post & black(-) charger cable to - battery post then turn on charger.

If tractor still won't turn over well enough to start then attach another battery charger or 12v vehicle to RH battery + to+ & - to -. Now tractor should start if starter motor is any good. BTDT several times

 

[4020_1966]

BTDT on the two charger thing too. For several months dad's 24v system wouldn't crank unless we did that, batteries acted like they were shot and would only hold charge for a few hours at best and had only enough steam to give it a half rotation crank before they were totally dead (freshly charged or few hours before). I got dad to finally go to 12v (my money and I was started doing it before he knew...). Now it holds charge for at least a week and has started anytime I tried it just fine, no ether or chargers. The batteries seem to have recovered some function with it 12v now. I know there was no shorts as I checked for current draw off each battery when it was 24 and we hadn't ran any current draws other than gauges. Had new generater and regulater (both checked and passed, did same on new and old). Dad is happy with it and my life is a lot easier now. He was die hard 24v a month ago, now likes his 12v a lot. Its a pretty hot and cold discussion but I still don't like 24, I was a fan of it until I had to do the charger trick and new batteries frequantly on mine a year and half ago. As for cold weather cranking, there are really good cranking 12v starters, just not the 35mt Delco Deere wants you to buy. The one I have cranks almost as fast as 24 in the cold and engages the flywheel a heck of a lot easier, it seems pretty gentle to engage then whips it over fast.