4100 vs 4000 SU

[Ultradog MN]

From reading this board I've always assumed that a 4100 was the standard ag model.
I was just tooling around at tractor house.com and they show several 4100s that aren't much different than an SU model. What is the deal?
The two bottom ones I would say are 4400s not SUs or 4100s

4100

 

[awhtx]

I have been under the assumption that the 4000 and 5000 came in 2 variations- the standard Ag model 4100/5100 and the Row Crop model 4200/5200. Of course I could be terribly mistaken.

 

[RodinNS]

Of the 'thousand series' tractors, the 4000 AP was numerically known as the 4100, the rowcrop the 4200, and so on... BUT this is clearly not a 4000 SERIES tractor. It's an x600 dereviative from 1976-1981, thus the model number is 4100. This was a stand alone model. Had a 4600 rear end and a 183 cid engine (small bore 175 block with 201, long throw crank), fitted with the SU front axle. I remember somebody argued that fact with me some time back and said it had the AP front axle... but your picture clearly shows it did not. That is a Ford 4100.

Rod

 

[RickB]

Rod, there are also 4100's that are X600 derivatives (good description) that have the AP front axle and single external P/S cylinder like an early Thousand Series 4100. No question in my mind about that. Gotta remember, 'always' and 'never' are risky words to use describing Fords.

 

[Fordfarmer]

Right. After Sounder's posts the other day when I said the 4100 was in essence a derated 4600 with the straight axle, I saw parts listings on the NH site showing the SU type front axle, like in Ultra's pic here. (think I've seen that 4100 on CL) My sales literature (for the 10 series) only shows it with the straight axle...but that is the newer series, which also replaced the 183 with a detuned 201. I have some x600 literature somewhere too... have to hunt it up and take a look.

 

[Ultradog MN]

Thanks guys.
Now that you mention it I do see the X600 style grill in the picture.
I wonder why they would go to the effort of building a 183 ci when they also built a 4600 SU with a 201.

 

[RickB]

That is true, so far as it goes. Then Ford introduced a tractor that was actually decaled as a 4100. That's the one discussed here.

 

[Fordfarmer]

They've done that several times... make a new model to split the difference between existing models. The 2910, 3910, 4100 (and 4110), 7810, and 8210 are all 'in between' models. (I think the 3910 was actually a replacement for either the 3610 or 4110... not sure) Any place with a big enough gap that some possible customer might want one "a little bigger, but not that big" Also, in the x600's, the 5600 was NOT meant as the replacement for the 5000 - that was the 6600's place. The 5600 used the old 233 and split the difference between the 4600 and 6600.

 

[RodinNS]

I think we can call this one a draw...
I've never seen them with the AP front but I will take your word for it.
Definitely agree that there were few absolutes in the Ford world. I always think of my '85 7710 with the 8 point wheels... that were apperantly not used after '83. At least according to the parts book.

Rod

 

[RickB]

I'd agree that the one less loader with the homemade 'citrus' fenders could very well be a 4400. But the one with the loader that is decaled 420 is likely to be a 420 given the hard grille shell and drag link steering.

 

[RodinNS]

To be technical about it I think the 3910 was more of a replacement for this 4100/4110 model. It was about giving the relative power of a 3610 with the heavier chassis. It took them until the 30 series to fully commit to the heavy chassis.

The 7810 was about installing a 401 into a 7610 chassis for those that had to have the 401 engine instead of the 268T. Then came along the 7910 that used the 7710 chassis with the flat deck... Somewhere around the same time was the 8210... and in that case they hopped it up a bit with a different clutch and ring/pinion and a bit more power... so it would be like a lighter TW-5. Basically a more functional tractor at the power spec. Actually... I think it came along before the TW-5 so there was quite a power gap between the 7710 and TW-10 at the time. 86 vs 110. This fit in supposedly at 95 I think... but seems to me they tested out around 100.

Rod

 

[RodinNS]

Somebody had a brain fart... They already had a 192 at the same time as well.

Rod

 

[shaun wallace]

Where does 2810 and 2310 fit in somewhere?

 

[Fordfarmer]

I wondered that too, although it didn't take all that much effort.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Looks more like a 4400 with a 3500 or 4500 front axle.Most 4400's I worked on had the heavy cast front axle with long spindles. 3500 & 4500 had that tubular axle with kingpins and truck style spindles.

 

[RickB]

I'll stand corrected on that. 34/4400's should have the fixed arch cast axle as you say. Can't think of an industrial derivative that has a soft grille shell and straight axle as built.

 

[Ultradog MN]

So a 192 = a 4000 block with a 3000 crank?

 

[Ultradog MN]

Rick, I think a 4400 had a straight axle like the citrus tractor.
You are thinking about a 4410 = 4000 chassis with the 3400 arched axle. NH lists it as a "woods tractor".
That's what I'm hoping to build here if I can find the right tranny with the castings to attach the radius rods to.
Not to change the subject but I'm still looking for a darned tootin, absolutely positive, no doubt about it answer whether a 3000 tranny with 8 sp and LPTO will work with a 4000 rear end with IPTO...

 

[RodinNS]

Basically... that may be an oversimplification incase you intend to make that swap... but yes, a 192 is a 4.4" bore, 4.2" stroke engine. The 183 was the reverse making it a 4.2" bore and 4.4" stroke... Ford's first over square engine. And an orphan.

Rod

 

[RodinNS]

They were both essentially replacements for the 2000/2600 with the single reduction axle and drum brakes. I'm not sure what the significance of both was as both spec much the same as far as I can tell.

Rod

 

[Fordfarmer]

doesn't your 4000 have the bosses for the radius rods? My 4600 does. I can't give you your no doubt about it answer, but I wouldn't count on a 3000/LPTO tranny working with a 4000/IPTO rear.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Never saw a 4400 with the kingpin axle--they were 3500/4500. 3400/4400 had the arched cast iron front axle. I'm starting to think that tractor might be a mix of two machines.

 

[Ultradog MN]

From the New Holland website.

4400 front axle and steering

 

[Stevel]

The 4400 industrial always had the inverted U straight beam front axle with truck type king pins. The 3400 and the very rare 4410 "woods tractor" as well as the later 335 and 532 "woods tractor" utilized the high arch cast I beam non adjustable axle. The 4410 and 532 did use the 201ci engine and double reduction rear end as did the 4400 and later 515. The 4400 had the power assist booster cylinder in the front bolster like the pre 1972 5000 all purpose (5100) models (which I am not fond of). The 4400 had a "soft nose" made of sheetmetal with the plastic egg crate grille like the 4000/5000 but the post '68 4400 diesels had a dry type air filter in lieu of the oil bath that the ag models had. The 3500,3550,4500 had the hard nose made of plate steel. Incidentally, the 3500/3550 had the same front axle beam as the 4400 but had different power steering with the booster cylinder on the left side of the tractor on the drag link.
There are some 4000/4600/4610 out there that were special build units that have the inverted U beam industrial axle. I own a 1985 4610 with this axle that originally belonged to the City of St. Louis. They had a sizable fleet of these special build tractors. I also have a 1975 4400 which never had a loader on it but has been yellow its whole life. I'm admittedly a Ford tractor nut but my particular fetish is industrial models. I'm pretty well geeked out on them.

 

[Shetland Sheepdog]

Ultradog,
I agree with you here. This front axle setup is exactly as I remember being on the 4400 that I had experience with back in the '70's
Prehaps souNdguy will weigh in with some pictures after he checks out the 4400 he's got on his radar.
Dave

 

[Shetland Sheepdog]

(reply to post at 14:03:33 01/03/11)

You will notice that the diagram shows the heavy duty front bolster the same or similar to what is used on the 5xxx -7xxx AP tractors, not the lighter one used on the 4xxx AP tractors. I'm not sure, but would suspect that the engine uses the cast oil pan, in place of the pressed steel, for added strength as well.
Dave

 

[sotxbill]

I think ford ran out of numbers in the x600 series.. ie the 5900 and other creative last minute derrivatives... yes, the early 4100/4200 later was thrown out the window....

The 7810 was for the Italian market that was afraid of turbo chargers.. and perferred a non turbo chassis. At that point ford was building just about anything and any color that anyone wanted. Yellow, orange, green and blue were shipped for hyway departments.