560 Valve setting

[WHFarms]

Dumb question! I am working through the overhaul manual page by page updating/restoring this old 560.

I need to get piston one to tdc. We set it roughly prior to putting the head on by simply looking at the piston. I look at the pulley and I am off an inch from the DC mark on the pulley. I want to confirm that if I turn the crank(I picked up a rod to make a quick hand crank) to set the pulley to DC then piston 1 will naturally be at TDC. Reading the manual I need to check valve 1 and make sure I am +-3 degrees from 8.

I honestly do not understand exactly what it all means. I have been searching for a video or something to help me.

I understand setting the valves on the next step but I am a bit confused on the 1st part. I don’t have the book in front of me to explain better. It is a 560 gas c263 engine with standard sleeves and standard bearings.

 

[used red MN]

When the valves for number 6 piston are in “rock” which means the exhaust just closed and the intake is just starting to open number one cylinder will be at TDC of compression. Or nearly, it will absolutely be close enough for valve setting. If you have the cam gear timed properly by the marks you are good to go, no way to change it. Well only if you have offset keys or special gears that have multiple key ways.

 

[WHFarms]

So I got to the tractor and the book again and I continue to be a bit confused (big bit). We never took the crank or cam out of the tractor. When I set the main pulley to DC it appears that #1 (front one) is indeed at TDC. We then set the intake to .034 and rotated the engine 1/2 turn to #1 is at bottom dead center. We checked the #1 intake and got .004.

What does the 8 degrees +- 3 degrees before top dead center mean.

When we try to do the valve lash adjustment procedure cam appears to be engaged for rods 5 and 7 to the point we cannot get a feeler guage between the valve and the rocker arm at all even if we loosen the rocker arm 100%.

Can anyone help give some advice. Am I doing something wrong?

 

[Janicholson]

My method is simple but takes understanding I look at one cylinder at a time. I start at the front, just to keep track. The layout from front to back is: #1Ex-In, #2In-Ex, #3 Ex-In, #4In-Ex, #5Ex-In, #6In-Ex.
I rotate the engine until #1 Exhaust just begins to open and then adjust the intake, then turn the engine until the intake just closes and adjust the exhaust. Follow that process to the end. No need to find TDC or marks. These indicator positions are easy to see, and no counting is needed. I put a dab of white marker on the intake rocker tips (per the above) to make sure I get it correct. Jim

 

[wore out]

Dumb question! I am working through the overhaul manual page by page updating/restoring this old 560.

I need to get piston one to tdc. We set it roughly prior to putting the head on by simply looking at the piston. I look at the pulley and I am off an inch from the DC mark on the pulley. I want to confirm that if I turn the crank(I picked up a rod to make a quick hand crank) to set the pulley to DC then piston 1 will naturally be at TDC. Reading the manual I need to check valve 1 and make sure I am +-3 degrees from 8.

I honestly do not understand exactly what it all means. I have been searching for a video or something to help me.

I understand setting the valves on the next step but I am a bit confused on the 1st part. I don’t have the book in front of me to explain better. It is a 560 gas c263 engine with standard sleeves and standard bearings.

Once you are on #1 tdc with the valves on #6 "loose" you can set 1/2 of the valves, then rotate crank one turn in the direction of normal rotation and set the other 1/2.

 

[WHFarms]

I was attempting to do the procedure in the manual listed like the blue. It’s a different manual I got from Jensens but same concept.

5 and 7 are not able to adjust. They are very very tight on the valves even with the adjustment 100% loose.

Under the rocker arms opposite of the valves there are long tubes that sit in 2” sleeves in the block casing. I don’t know the names I’d have to get out the parts manual. The two valves that I’m concerned about being tight these sleeves are raised slightly out of the block. I am assuming the crank has them pushed up slightly.

 

[used red MN]

I was attempting to do the procedure in the manual listed like the blue. It’s a different manual I got from Jensens but same concept.

5 and 7 are not able to adjust. They are very very tight on the valves even with the adjustment 100% loose.

Under the rocker arms opposite of the valves there are long tubes that sit in 2” sleeves in the block casing. I don’t know the names I’d have to get out the parts manual. The two valves that I’m concerned about being tight these sleeves are raised slightly out of the block. I am assuming the crank has them pushed up slightly.

CNHI IH 560 cylinder head parts
Okay, from former posts we went from I’m thinking of doing an in-frame overhaul to.. we have a problem with some washers on the rod bolts to.. a problem with 2” tubes the valves go in. I am assuming what you are talking about are valve guides numbers 13 & 20 linked at the front of this post. (Not sure this forum software is working right with my iPhone, the link dropped in before the text of my reply) If we are talking about valve guides those should not be moving around. Where are we at?? What did we do to this thing so far??
Lastly you said above..
“”When I set the main pulley to DC it appears that #1 (front one) is indeed at TDC. We then set the intake to .034 and rotated the engine 1/2 turn to #1 is at bottom dead center. We checked the #1 intake and got .004.
What does the 8 degrees +- 3 degrees before top dead center mean.””
I have no clue what you are trying to do there?? Is .034” the valve clearance spec you have been given? I think you are possibly misunderstanding something the manual is saying.
Again more information of what has been done and if the valve guides is what you are talking about is what I would like to know.
Editing to add: Are the tubes you are talking about the “Tappets” #9 often called the valve lifters?? If you set the valve clearance at top dead center and are turning the crank a half turn it is very likely that the valve is starting to travel (be mechanically opened) at that point. Valve tappets do raise up and down so movement of them is not alarming, the camshaft is what they ride on which has lobes (eccentric bumps) that raise and lower them. I think it was said above the process calls for number one cylinder to be on TDC of compression then half the valves are set. Then the crank is turned one full revolution then the remaining half or 6 are then set.

 

[WHFarms]

CNHI IH 560 cylinder head parts
Okay, from former posts we went from I’m thinking of doing an in-frame overhaul to.. we have a problem with some washers on the rod bolts to.. a problem with 2” tubes the valves go in. I am assuming what you are talking about are valve guides numbers 13 & 20 linked at the front of this post. (Not sure this forum software is working right with my iPhone, the link dropped in before the text of my reply) If we are talking about valve guides those should not be moving around. Where are we at?? What did we do to this thing so far??
Lastly you said above..
“”When I set the main pulley to DC it appears that #1 (front one) is indeed at TDC. We then set the intake to .034 and rotated the engine 1/2 turn to #1 is at bottom dead center. We checked the #1 intake and got .004.
What does the 8 degrees +- 3 degrees before top dead center mean.””
I have no clue what you are trying to do there?? Is .034” the valve clearance spec you have been given? I think you are possibly misunderstanding something the manual is saying.
Again more information of what has been done and if the valve guides is what you are talking about is what I would like to know.
Editing to add: Are the tubes you are talking about the “Tappets” #9 often called the valve lifters?? If you set the valve clearance at top dead center and are turning the crank a half turn it is very likely that the valve is starting to travel (be mechanically opened) at that point. Valve tappets do raise up and down so movement of them is not alarming, the camshaft is what they ride on which has lobes (eccentric bumps) that raise and lower them. I think it was said above the process calls for number one cylinder to be on TDC of compression then half the valves are set. Then the crank is turned one full revolution then the remaining half or 6 are then set.

I will get a picture of the procedure in the manual. There is a chance that my DC mark on the pulley is not true tdc. There is also a chance that someone before me got into this engine and has the cam and crank not lined up.

There is a procedure in the book on valve timing that is confusing to me. It isn’t lash but timing.

I haven’t done an engine overhaul before. I have read, watched videos and listened closely to lots of advice. I don’t know the names of every part. I often times can look them up, but my phone is having some type of apple update problem and I am not by my printed manual.

I have indeed run into a few small problems along the way but I’ve figured out most of them. I’m trying to learn something new. I apologize for all the questions.

 

[Janicholson]

I will get a picture of the procedure in the manual. There is a chance that my DC mark on the pulley is not true tdc. There is also a chance that someone before me got into this engine and has the cam and crank not lined up.

There is a procedure in the book on valve timing that is confusing to me. It isn’t lash but timing.

I haven’t done an engine overhaul before. I have read, watched videos and listened closely to lots of advice. I don’t know the names of every part. I often times can look them up, but my phone is having some type of apple update problem and I am not by my printed manual.

I have indeed run into a few small problems along the way but I’ve figured out most of them. I’m trying to learn something new. I apologize for all the questions.

If you use what I suggested in my post it should cure the issue on that cylinder. However if the rockers on that cylinder are not moving when you turn it with your improvise crank, the lifters may be stuck in their bore, or the pushrods are not in the pockets in the lifters (tappets). not moving is not right, There is a position in which both valves are partially depressed, it is valve overlap and happens at or near TDC on that cylinder exhaust to intake zone. Jim (I am a master mechanic) this works on all 4 cycle engines such as yours.

 

[used red MN]

I will get a picture of the procedure in the manual. There is a chance that my DC mark on the pulley is not true tdc. There is also a chance that someone before me got into this engine and has the cam and crank not lined up.

There is a procedure in the book on valve timing that is confusing to me. It isn’t lash but timing.

I haven’t done an engine overhaul before. I have read, watched videos and listened closely to lots of advice. I don’t know the names of every part. I often times can look them up, but my phone is having some type of apple update problem and I am not by my printed manual.

I have indeed run into a few small problems along the way but I’ve figured out most of them. I’m trying to learn something new. I apologize for all the questions.

If you follow the rock procedure in my first reply that will tell you if your TDC mark is in the ball park. Normal valve timing will place the intake/exhaust rock or overlap right within a few degrees on either side of number one TDC compression. It will be close enough for it to run. Have you seen the tractor run? If it ran it is likely properly in time. So you did you install rings or what? Did you have the valves ground? Still no clarification on what the parts are that you called the 2” sleeves. I attached a link that shows the parts breakdown!

 

[caterpillar guy]

IF you are talking about the sleeves being up just a bit and are higher than the ones next to it in the block sounds like the piston sleeves and those should not move or need to be held down with a washer and a bolt at the edge of the sleeve where the piston will not hit it . also if the sleeves are up a bit you need to look at that problem first. This may mean removing the pistons to see what is going on there. IF wet sleeves they may move and need the held down mentioned if they are dry sleeves and move you have a problem that needs fixed first. IF the pushrods are the tight point look to see if they are setting in the lifters or in a hole in the block not moving. They can get out of place when turning the engine over. More information is also needed since we are not there to see it.

 

[used red MN]

Cat guy, he is doing his first engine work. Understandably, he has difficulties using proper terminology. I don’t think he is seeing the cylinder sleeves. From my understanding he has the head on and is adjusting the valves. I also believe he is trying to follow some kind of process from a manual that is for checking proper camshaft timing. He also does not seem to want to tell us exactly what he has done to the engine in the repair and rebuild categories, he must want us to stumble along making guesses.

 

[WHFarms]

Here are some pictures

 

[WHFarms]

The part that I could not recall the name are tappets.

I had the head ground. I did not remove the cam or crank. We put new sleeves and pistons and bearings and bolts and WASHERS and gaskets and some more stuff.

We are following the service manual step by step. I have attached the paragraph that doesn’t make sense to me.

Sorry for the delayed response I had cattle to run through the chute this morning. The tractor is new to us about 6 months ago. We use it every day during the summer to move a water wagon for our cattle. We thought that we should try and spend a few dollars on some repairs it needed and try to give it a new better chance at life.


I’ve done restoration work on a M before but never an engine. I’m learning as I go. Asking lots of questions and just trying my best to make sure everything is done correctly.

 

[WHFarms]

IF you are talking about the sleeves being up just a bit and are higher than the ones next to it in the block sounds like the piston sleeves and those should not move or need to be held down with a washer and a bolt at the edge of the sleeve where the piston will not hit it . also if the sleeves are up a bit you need to look at that problem first. This may mean removing the pistons to see what is going on there. IF wet sleeves they may move and need the held down mentioned if they are dry sleeves and move you have a problem that needs fixed first. IF the pushrods are the tight point look to see if they are setting in the lifters or in a hole in the block not moving. They can get out of place when turning the engine over. More information is also needed since we are not there to see it.

It isn’t the sleeves. I used a sleeve puller and removed the old ones. Cleaned everything up with brake cleaner and wd 40. Put new sleeves in and checked to make sure the “reveal” was less that .006” from the top of the sleeve to the block. All ended less than .004”.

 

[caterpillar guy]

Ok based on your pictures have you checked that all the pushrods are the same length since somebody could have changed them in the past with this being a 50 year old tractor and who knows what has been done in the past. Or maybe the rocker arms are not quite the same so they could set a bit lower causing your length problem. Those currently are the only things I think of at this time on it. For future use. I use a cardboard to poke holes in for the pushrods with one end labeled front on it. This keeps them all in the position they came out of .I also use a wood block and drill holes part way through to put the lifters in so they are all in the original position with it labeled front at one end. I use a board for the valves in the same manner this keeps all of it in the original location for future reference if there is a problem and then if new valves are used I can just put the old valves in a can for future need.

 

[WHFarms]

I know I have all the tappers in the correct location. Rods were indeed mixed up. I will take them all out and see that they look the same. It did get new valves.

 

[used red MN]

Per the valve timing process in that manual it appears you have something wrong. Take an old spark plug and bust the porcelain out of it also break off the ground electrode. Get a 3/8 diameter rod 2” long. Weld the rod in the spark plug base so about 1 3/4” stick out beyond the end of the threads. Move the piston of number one cylinder down away from TDC. Install the plug you made, it is a piston stop. Turn the piston up until it stops against the stopper. Mark the location at the pointer on the pulley. Then turn the engine the opposite way until it stops mark the pulley again. Use a tape to measure the distance between the two marks. Half way between the two marks is 100% dead on TDC of the piston and the timing mark should agree with that.

 

[WHFarms]

Per the valve timing process in that manual it appears you have something wrong. Take an old spark plug and bust the porcelain out of it also break off the ground electrode. Get a 3/8 diameter rod 2” long. Weld the rod in the spark plug base so about 1 3/4” stick out beyond the end of the threads. Move the piston of number one cylinder down away from TDC. Install the plug you made, it is a piston stop. Turn the piston up until it stops against the stopper. Mark the location at the pointer on the pulley. Then turn the engine the opposite way until it stops mark the pulley again. Use a tape to measure the distance between the two marks. Half way between the two marks is 100% dead on TDC of the piston and the timing mark should agree with that.

Understood. Thanks

 

[Janicholson]

Here are some pictures

A last idea! If the wrong valves were installed, or the seats ground down into the head, it could be the cause! Measure the installed height of the retainer to head, or more carefully the relaxed spring height (rocker off) retainer on. Jim