801 woes

[Scottymudguy]

Hey guy"s,
I have been lurking around here for about a month & a half now...thats about how long ago I bought my first tractor. I bought a 1960 801, it has a 5" box scraper, 12" post hole digger, & a lift (name of lift slips my mind now) I know this is an "N" board but after reading this forum evry day, something tells me you guys wont mind much!!
So I bring the tractor home (drove it home about 1.5-2 miles away), right away took it down to pasture that needs some attention. Noticed a few things right away...3pt is pretty sluggish in responding up or down, draft doesnt seem to work, & everytime the tractor even started to work a little bit, it would die. Had to choke it to restart it every time & the battery was going away quick...
So up the shop I took the blue supposed to be red belly..
Drained ALL of the fluids, front to back top to bottom...motor oil was well used, tranny, hyd, & diff were all real milky (got between a pint & a quart of straight water from the diff). Went to start refilling everything and I could see something in the hydraulic sump that sent my hairs straight up!! There is a seal or bearing cover (guessing bearing though)on the rear wall to the diff sump that looked like something exploded in. I was already doubtful that new fluid was going to adress the sluggishness of the hydraulics, so off comes the cover! Got instant gratification for the earlier alarm, it was an old wound that somone else fixed...kinda. There was about 2" of gritty sludge in the bottom of the sump...yikes! So began digging a bit deeper, Hydraulic cylinder & piston were well scored & NO ring on the piston, Honed cylinder out & started a list of stuff to order piston & o-ring on top!! Saftey valve..body was ok but the internals were in about 10-12 pieces, cam follower...wore almost all the way through, on to the pump I moved...it needed a complete rebuild, all the pistons were pretty sticky, so a pump rebuild kit was added to the list as well. Had a pretty good list of things so I made my first order. While waiting for it I moved on to some electrical issues starting with plugs, wires, distbutor & its goodies, then moved onto the hacked up harness...what a wreck it was!! Took the genny, volt reg, & starter solinoid off & down to the local spark guru...turns out I should have taken the starter as well...lessons learned! So by now my first order comes in with great timing, same day I drop the electrical goodies off. Cleaned up the pump & put it all back together, no problem shop manual is pretty detailed here. Moved on the hydraulic cylinder, new o-ring & piston dont seem to be very snug...piston will fall out slowly on its own when turned up-side down... the cylinder is still round inside wich kinda surprised me, I figured the "bottom" would be egged a little, so I went to napa & got o-rings in the next 3 sizes up..2nd one up snugged everything up good. I suspect that I will be replacing the cylinder itself quite shortly though...
Replaced the cam follower no problem, funbled through getting the linkages back together & in proper places & orientation...I think & hope!! The shop manual really let me down with diagrams here, & by now it has been almost 2 weeks since the teardown, so memory isnt helping much either! Get the cover all put together, & put back in place, new fluid added & prep for a startup!! Excited, cant wait...you guys all know that feeling...
Key on...check. Say a prayer...check. Push the button....click...click...swear to my self & the faithfull dog thats always there cheering you on...try it again...click. Dead battery. Charge overnight, go back in the morning fresh cup of coffee & high hopes! Nope...the poor dog has to run out of the shop because he thinks I"m mad at him....so off to the shop goes the starter... get it back & reinstalled...still cant get her to fire up though! Re-set basic ign timing, checked for spark, double check getting fuel...fianally WAY down the list & plenty agrivated check the coil...1.5 ohms instead of the 3 needed...hmmmm
New coil installed with proper ohms, still cant get it to fire. Had to quit as I was getting nowhere...I suspect the plugs are fouled though after all the start attempts...I hope!
Going to clean the plugs, re check basic timing & giv-er a go this morning (extra prayers in order as it"s Sunday you know)!!
Found Zanes site Friday night...I expect I will be needing a jig in the near future after reading the archives on setting everything up in the linkage assemblies....unless the sun happened to be shining on this dog"s a** the day I assembled it...

Sorry this went on so long guy"s...I should have joined a couple weeks ago and I could have shortened it up a bit & saved my self some trouble whilst going through all this!!

Scott

 

[Charles Krammin]

Slow down and take one problem at atime.Starting issues to resolve 1. fuel- Sounds like PO abused. Drain carb. Look for water and crud. Sediment bowl- is it clean? Look in gas tank. Any visible crud or old gas?
Electrical 1. spark at plugs? Pull plugs, clean.
burn off any excess vapor with a match. Any spark across plugs.? If not start backwards and pinpoint any problem.
Later ask on nydraulic problems
Charles Krammin SW MI

 

[Scottymudguy]

Charles,

Do I need to take carb apart to check? I installed a new shut off valve with screen & a new fuel line as well. The old one was bent almost shut, sediment bowl is clear. If I take plug out of bottom of carb I get a good solid stream of gas out of it with problems...I drained a couple gallons out of it after installing new valve & line & it didnt take to long...3 or 4 minutes maybe 5. Very little crud in tank...couldnt cover a dime with it all, looked around in there good with a mirror & a light, looks to me like a fairly new tank.
Installed new plugs, gapped at 26k...spec in man says 25-28k, new COPPER wires, spark jumps at least a 1/4"(used an old plug and opened it way up) tested each wire then each plug as well.
about the only thing else that I left out was that I converted it to an electronic ign...I am thinking maybe I should go back with points & condenser & see if she will fire then...get her timed good, then re-install eletronics...if no start then I can clearly point at the electronic ignition? Or I am I missing something else? I went around her again today & double checked that the grounding points were all "shiny"....starter to housing, battery to block, battery cables nice & clean with them felt pad's and the spray stuff too....getting a bald spot from scratchin my head so much!!
I'm down to thinking its gotta be those "easier" electronic points!

 

[DollarBill]

[b:21fa47d9fd]Installed new plugs, gapped at 26k...spec in man says 25-28k, new COPPER wires, spark jumps at least a 1/4"(used an old plug and opened it way up) tested each wire then each plug as well.[/b:21fa47d9fd]

Scotty, if you have spark, the electronic points are doing their job. Now verify the spark is getting to the cylinder at the right time.

Did you pull the distributor to install the electronic ignition? If so, you may have reinstalled it one tooth off?
[b:21fa47d9fd]
[color=darkred:21fa47d9fd]"If I take plug out of bottom of carb I get a good solid stream of gas out of it with problems...I drained a couple gallons out of it after installing new valve & line & it didnt take to long...3 or 4 minutes maybe 5."[/color:21fa47d9fd][/b:21fa47d9fd]

Having a little problem understanding - Is the fuel flowing okay for 3-4 minutes and then shutting off? What you're looking for is a continuous flow until the tank runs dry - You don't have to let it run that long, I'm just trying to let you know it should be steady stream all the time. If gas flow slows after 3-4 minutes, loosen your gas cap and see if the flow picks back up. Time for a new cap.

If you've flooded your new spark plugs with gas, they're covered with an invisible film that may keep them from firing under compression. Burn em off with a torch or spray them with brake cleaner.

 

[Charles Krammin]

I agree with dollar bill. "spark to plugs means elextronic ignition is working okay". next step, recheck timing. Pull plug on #1. Put thumb over plug hole. Tap starter until you feel "compression". Use a piece of wire thru plug hole and then turn motor with fan, until you feel TDC (Top dead Center). This is the point of firing. Check rotor in distributor. Is it pointing to # 1 spark plug wire terminal. If not unbolt distributor and move shaft and rotor to #1 position.
The FO 4 manual, shows the timing mark cover below and on front of bellhousing, below hydraulic pump. move the cover and you can then see the "starter ring" and "timing marks". Using a screw driver, turn flywheel in normal direction until the specified "fully advanced timing mark on the flywheel is in register with the index mark at the timing port. the fulley advanced timing marks are 26 degrees for 55-57 models and 24 degrees for 1958 and later. If it starts and runs you may want to time it with a "timing light"
Post back if this helped.

Charles Krammin SW MI

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 10:45:46 02/21/11) I agree with dollar bill. "spark to plugs means elextronic ignition is working okay". next step, recheck timing. Pull plug on #1. Put thumb over plug hole. Tap starter until you feel "compression". Use a piece of wire thru plug hole and then turn motor with fan, until you feel TDC (Top dead Center). This is the point of firing. Check rotor in distributor. Is it pointing to # 1 spark plug wire terminal. If not unbolt distributor and move shaft and rotor to #1 position.
The FO 4 manual, shows the timing mark cover below and on front of bellhousing, below hydraulic pump. move the cover and you can then see the "starter ring" and "timing marks". Using a screw driver, turn flywheel in normal direction until the specified "fully advanced timing mark on the flywheel is in register with the index mark at the timing port. the fulley advanced timing marks are 26 degrees for 55-57 models and 24 degrees for 1958 and later. If it starts and runs you may want to time it with a "timing light"
Post back if this helped.

Charles Krammin SW MI

ne more thing you ought to verify is that you used the proper set of screw holes in installing the EI. Some have two sets of holes, one for CCW distributors & another set for CW distributors. If your is like that & you installed it using the wrong holes, you will not have a spark at the correct time. The instruction sheet covers this.

 

[Scottymudguy]

Thanks for the help with the EI guys...I was missing that with the spark! I did indeed make sure (double checked again yesterday) that I installed it with clockwise screw.
I did not put any lube or di-electric grease on that guy because it does not have any rub points on the distrubutor cam...this is correct right?
I did have the distrubtor out. When I reset tdc with #1 I did notice that when I went to align timing mark, the rotor would advance to in between the terminals...I was making sure that #1 was the next to fire. What you guys are saying though is that I need to make sure that the rotor is directly underneath #1 terminal, correct? If so then I probably need to turn the distrubutor one "hole".
Charles...you are saying to set timing at fully advanced...I have been using basic wich is 4, are you saying that it can be set at any of the 3 settings to get it started? Then I can run through the 3 settings with the light & confirm that they are correct. Not trying to be a smart alec...soaking up the knowledge is all!! I have never been to confident with the "old style" points & condenser...young enough that everything was going electronic when I got old enough to start working on stuff!!
Bill...I should have been a bit more clear on the gas...I drained all the rest of the "old" gas from my tank which was about 2-3 gallons and that was what had taken 3-4 minutes...I just didnt want the gas that was in the tank to be a possibility of problems...makes good parts cleaning solvent anyways!!

Heres another ?? Will any pressure gauge work for checking compression or do I need a specific "Compression" gauge? I have a couple diffrent gauges laying around that I could maybe use...0-50 PSI & a 0-200PSI...what is a normal range for the compression on these? This one is a 172ci version. I dont think I have a compression issue...just curious!! #1 blows my thumb off pretty good, have not done the others.

Thanks again guy's!!!

 

[Scottymudguy]

Ooops just noticed when posted that last night that I didn't say that right....
When I drained the tank, there was only about 2-3 gallons in the tank, I drained it all through the bottom of the carb & it only took 3 or 4 minutes...5 tops. It all drained in a steady flow withOUT problems!!! Sorry about that guys!!
I do have a new cap coming though...this one is pretty weather checked & the gasket is almost gone!

 

[DollarBill]

[b:9b75341dd8][color=darkred:9b75341dd8]"What you guys are saying though is that I need to make sure that the rotor is directly underneath #1 terminal, correct?"[/color:9b75341dd8][/b:9b75341dd8] [b:9b75341dd8]Yes, that is correct.[/b:9b75341dd8]

[b:9b75341dd8]Not exactly sure of compression for the 172 but I would imagine should be somewhere around 150PSI - If I'm wrong, someone will jump in with the correct info.

Initial timing is 0 degrees or TDC. This will get you ready to fire then set the final timing with a timing light at 4 degrees BTDC.[/b:9b75341dd8]

 

[Charles Krammin]

Scotty,
I am not knowledgable with EI, so others will have to help you there. May want to reread instruction of installation as there are some things in your original post, lacking information to correctly help you, as an example, "Coil checked 1 ohm so changed it to 3 ohm." This indicates you have a 12 volt, negative ground charging system ?????. Y or no What is the EI for in this regard? What make is the EI??? Does it have a number to call for help ?

PS I should have referred to FO manual as FO 20, not FO 4

The information I posted in reply, in setting the timing is as it reads in the manual, however in reading futher, the 24 degree setting advanced is at 2200 RPM. The start , or idle speeed setting, is the "4 degree advanced setting".
Since the EI doesn't use points, I would assume it uses a "magnetic trigging device" and consequently "NO lube needed.
Charles Krammin SW MI

 

[Charles Krammin]

Scotty,
If 12 volt NEGATIVE GROUND charging system, is the coil hooked up correctly as the FO 20 indicates this tractor came with a 6 VOLT POSITIVE ground.
WARNING Changing terninals on coil, for a change in polarity, could ruin entire EI system, which would void its warranty, and cost you SSSS.
Seck help from manufacture or where you bought it, before changing. The FO 20 manual does not show the coil, in the wiring diagram. I will go and see how my 12 volt negative ground, 3.5 ohm coil and point ignition, is hooked up as I know it is correct by viewing the spark from plug wire to spark plug.
If this coil is not hooked up properly, you could be experiencing "WEAK SPARK" and consequently, "HARD STARTING"
Charles Krammin SW MI

 

[Scottymudguy]

Charles,
Thanks so much for the help...your very first post was enough to get me on track! I had to turn the distrubutor to a diffrent "hole"...I could not get tdc & the rotor to align, so after picking up dist & turning it back a little I was able to get everything lined up properly...what do you know she fired with a little hesitation, got her all timed up smartly & she purrs now. Starts with the slightest bump of the starter now! Whew...I was running out of hair to pull out!!
I do indeed have 12v neg ground system. When I went through the trouble shooting section of the EI instructions, I was able to determine that the coil that was on the tractor only had 1.5 ohms resistance while the directions stated I neeeded 3 ohms minimum for a 4 cyl engine. I think we are both assuming the same thing as far as the lube on the new EI. There is a little magnetic collar that slips over the distb cam lobe, its made of plastic but must be a magnet embedded in it & the new "point" apperatus must use it like a proximity switch or something.

Again thanks everyone for the help!! I really appreciate it!!

Scott
Off to start another thread now...found more issues to adress!