8N valve spring shim question

[skyhiranger]

I seached, but didn't see anything about these...as far as stock Ford parts go.
I did do a google search, and it appears that they are valve spring shims. The markings on the shims are "V.S.I. 101".
http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/goodson-tools-supplies-4801/2011-tools-supplies-for-engine-builders-24563/vsi-valve-spring-shims.html
It is apparent that this engine has been into before, at some point (not surprising, for a 61 year old tractor). The block has been drilled, so a pin/punch/rod can be used to hold the adjustable tappets in place, instead of having to use the tappet wrenches. And also one exhaust valve is dished on top, instead of flat, like the stock ones. It also had a "soft" headgasket on it.

Anyway, long story short....I am putting some new valve springs in my '51 8N.
When I disassembled the old valves (it has rotating exhaust valves and solid guides), there was a shim between the valve spring retainer and also the valve guide retainer, on all 8 valves. The shims are marked "this side up" (although not all were installed the same way). :roll:
The shim that is nearest to the valve head is slightly thicker and copper colored, as compared to the one nearest the valve stem tip, that is thinner and silver colored.

I am wondering if I need to put these shims back in, or not (I would guess "no")? Since I don't see them listed in the Parts catalog, the FO-4 manual, or the owners manual, I am not sure why they were there, or what their purpose is. Most of the old valve springs do have a bow to them, so maybe that has something to do with the shims being there?
If I do need to put the shims back in, what is the proper orientation for them? Meaning, should the "this side up" side, go towards the retainers, or actually face "up" as the valves are installed, or face towards the ends of the spring?

Any help/advice/insight, would be greatly appreciated.

I tried to link some pics, but since I am a new registration, it won't let me.

 

[R Geiger]

(quoted from post at 01:26:03 10/19/12) I seached, but didn't see anything about these...as far as stock Ford parts go.
I did do a google search, and it appears that they are valve spring shims. The markings on the shims are "V.S.I. 101".
http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/goodson-tools-supplies-4801/2011-tools-supplies-for-engine-builders-24563/vsi-valve-spring-shims.html
It is apparent that this engine has been into before, at some point (not surprising, for a 61 year old tractor). The block has been drilled, so a pin/punch/rod can be used to hold the adjustable tappets in place, instead of having to use the tappet wrenches. And also one exhaust valve is dished on top, instead of flat, like the stock ones. It also had a "soft" headgasket on it.

Anyway, long story short....I am putting some new valve springs in my '51 8N.
When I disassembled the old valves (it has rotating exhaust valves and solid guides), there was a shim between the valve spring retainer and also the valve guide retainer, on all 8 valves. The shims are marked "this side up" (although not all were installed the same way). :roll:
The shim that is nearest to the valve head is slightly thicker and copper colored, as compared to the one nearest the valve stem tip, that is thinner and silver colored.

I am wondering if I need to put these shims back in, or not (I would guess "no")? Since I don't see them listed in the Parts catalog, the FO-4 manual, or the owners manual, I am not sure why they were there, or what their purpose is. Most of the old valve springs do have a bow to them, so maybe that has something to do with the shims being there?
If I do need to put the shims back in, what is the proper orientation for them? Meaning, should the "this side up" side, go towards the retainers, or actually face "up" as the valves are installed, or face towards the ends of the spring?

Any help/advice/insight, would be greatly appreciated.

I tried to link some pics, but since I am a new registration, it won't let me.

I would not use them since you are replacing the valve springs.

 

[skyhiranger]

(quoted from post at 12:22:05 10/18/12)

I would not use them since you are replacing the valve springs.

That is what I am thinking too.
So what is the purpose of spring shims, to compensate for weak springs?

 

[R Geiger]

(quoted from post at 02:40:03 10/19/12)

(quoted from post at 12:22:05 10/18/12)

I would not use them since you are replacing the valve springs.

That is what I am thinking too.
So what is the purpose of spring shims, to compensate for weak springs?

that is the only reason that I can think of, but some people get pretty carried away in their thinking! If you had the correct equipment and knew what the specs are you can measure the lengths of the springs and compress them to certian length and it would take a certain amount of pressure to do that. Did it all the time when I was overhauling Fuel Controls for Jet engines, but then that required a bit more precise measurements to get them to flow fuel light they should.

 

[Duner Wi]

VSI are used to compensate for material removed from valves or seats. You have new valves so seat recession is what you are concerned with. There should be a valve spring installed height spec but my Ford book is down in the shop.

 

[skyhiranger]

(quoted from post at 19:42:29 10/18/12) VSI are used to compensate for material removed from valves or seats. You have new valves so seat recession is what you are concerned with. There should be a valve spring installed height spec but my Ford book is down in the shop.

I just have new valve springs. I am reusing the old valves.

 

[R Geiger]

I see noting like this in the FO_4 service manual. just the compression specs. are you thinking about overhead valves? just wondering.

 

[ASEguy]

Valve spring shims are used to restore valve spring tension. Valve springs are tension tested typically at two lenghts: valve open and valve closed. Some are tension tested at one lenght. Manufacturers usually allow for a 10% variance from the tension test. That said, with new springs you can leave out the shims. Gerard

 

[skyhiranger]

Thanks everyone. I'll leave the shims out, since I have new springs that I am putting in.

 

[skyhiranger]

Well, I am still waiting on the new valve springs that I was shorted on my order from nnalert, so I can finish this project up. I'm not impressed with the nnalert service, or attention to detail.

I placed an order, with nnalert, that totalled a little under $200. It took 7 days (5 business days) to get here (which I had no problem with), after I placed the order. As soon as I got the box, I did an inventory and noticed they only shipped me 3 of the 8 valve springs I ordered. So I called and politely told them I was missing some valve springs and I would like the remaining 5 valve springs. They asked if the box had any damage and/or holes in it (thinking that maybe some fell out). I told them, "No, the shipping box was in perfect shape and the valve spring box, inside the shipping box, was fine too". So they said probably what happened is whoever packed the order just grabbed the valve spring box (which is supposed to contain 8 valve springs) off the shelf, and didn't bother to open the box to actually check to see if all 8 springs were in it, and just threw it in the shipping box. I said ok, I would just like the remaining 5 valve springs that I ordered. So the lady tells me they will get the shorted springs shipped out and I should have them in a couple of days.

Well, here it is 8 days (6 business days) later and I still don't have all my valve springs. So I call them up, to ask for a tracking number on the valve springs. The guy I talk to tells me they don't generally track shorted parts shipments. Ok, whatever. :roll: But he does seem to recall those springs shipped out on Monday (which was 5 days (3 business days) after I called them and told them about the missing springs).

So the way I see it, even though they screwed up the original shipment, they saw no urgency in getting me my shorted parts. It's not like I was expecting them to overnight the parts to me; I just expected them to get the parts sent out to me in a timely manner.

Luckily, I rarely have to order parts for my 8N. But I will say that nnalert will likely be towards the bottom of the list, from now on. I guess cheap prices=substandard customer service (in my experience), which is unfortunate.

 

[skyhiranger]

My other 5 valve springs showed up today. Ship date on the package was 10/24/12 (same day I called and asked for a tracking number on the springs that nnalert originally told me would ship out on 10/17 or 10/18.). So in other words, they lied to me when I called on 10/17, and didn't ship them out 10/17 or 10/18, like they implied they would, when they said "I'd have them in a couple of days". Then they lied to me again, when I called on 10/24 and said they shipped them out on 10/22.
The only good thing to come out of this, is that I did finally get all my parts.

 

[Hobo,NC]

Just proves they are Human... I am sure they never set out to screw ya but sometimes a mess up (even if its not their/your fraught) sets off another and things went south...

 

[Royse]

I ordered some parts from them, including 2 of "x" part.
My order came in missing the two "x" parts, but containing two "y" parts that I didn't order.
Grabbed from the wrong bin probably.
Both x and y were small parts.
A quick phone call and they fixed it up.
Shipped my two "x" parts the next day and didn't want the two "y" parts sent back.
Mistakes happen sometimes. I get that.
In my case, they fixed it to my satisfaction.

 

[Ken(Ark)]

with new springs you can leave out the shims

Not necessarily .

The shims have less to do with it being a new or used spring but more of what the installed load and height is . The shims were probably not installed because the old springs were weak , weak springs are replaced not shimmed .

At "X" height the spring had "Y" load but with the seat and valve being ground "Z" it add more "X" and reduced "Y"

So even a new spring at "X" + "Z" may not be compressed sufficiently to produce ample "Y" to hold the valve closed .

 

[skyhiranger]

(quoted from post at 21:39:13 10/26/12)
Just proves they are Human... I am sure they never set out to screw ya but sometimes a mess up (even if its not their/your fraught) sets off another and things went south...

I am sure they didn't set out to "screw me". And I realize everyone is human and we all make mistakes. But when you are running a business and mess up, you had better get it fixed in a timely manner, to keep the customers happy. Not doing what you say you are going to do and lying to customers about when the parts ship, will not generally get you any repeat business.

(quoted from post at 21:53:31 10/26/12) I ordered some parts from them, including 2 of "x" part.
My order came in missing the two "x" parts, but containing two "y" parts that I didn't order.
Grabbed from the wrong bin probably.
Both x and y were small parts.
A quick phone call and they fixed it up.
Shipped my two "x" parts the next day and didn't want the two "y" parts sent back.
Mistakes happen sometimes. I get that.
In my case, they fixed it to my satisfaction.

Lucky you. If I would have gotten my missing parts in a couple of days, after I called the first time, it would have been ok.
But when it takes 2 phone calls to get my missing parts shipped, that is BS.
I have since read of quite a few instances where nnalert has messed up orders. So it doesn't sound like it is a rare occurance.
I guess the reason they keep their prices low, is so they can actually get some business. I know that is the only reason I initially ordered from them.

 

[skyhiranger]

(quoted from post at 22:18:46 10/26/12)

with new springs you can leave out the shims

Not necessarily .

The shims have less to do with it being a new or used spring but more of what the installed load and height is . The shims were probably not installed because the old springs were weak , weak springs are replaced not shimmed .

At "X" height the spring had "Y" load but with the seat and valve being ground "Z" it add more "X" and reduced "Y"

So even a new spring at "X" + "Z" may not be compressed sufficiently to produce ample "Y" to hold the valve closed .

So you are saying that there is a possibility that I need to reuse the shims?
What would I need to do (measure) to determine this?
The thing is, I have not read anywhere, where someone has used shims on the springs, after a valve/seat grind.

 

[Ken(Ark)]

The thing is, I have not read anywhere, where someone has used shims on the springs, after a valve/seat grind.

The N's are a lower rpm motor and would not need as much seat pressure as the V8's .

I do not have the info handy and unfortunatly I have little time to do any research in the next few weeks .

This might help a little ,

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56760&highlight=valve+spring+shims