8n wont start.

I have a 1950 8n with side mount dist. and 6 volt.system. I recently replaced the plug wires which were old and dry rotted and caused a slight miss. After replacing the plug wires, it ran perfect until i shut it down then it wouldnt start until it cooled(it never did this before i changed the wires) I figured the coil must be bad so I put a new one in and it wont start at all now (even col) Any ideas would greatly be appreciated.
 
" I figured the coil must be bad "

There are two schools of thought when it comes to getting a non-running tractor to start. One way is to just start replacing every part you can get to until it starts or you run out of money. The other way is to take a step-by-step approach to solving the problem, working from most likely to least likely. The trick to fixing these tractors (or trouble shooting any piece of equipment) is to be systematic about it. You need to isolate the problem step by step and work from most likely to least likely.

At this point, you do not know if it's a spark problem or a fuel problem.

Coil problems are difficult to diagnose. For starters, round coils are pretty robust & square coils aren’t (because of the difference in insulation used), but neither one will hold up to a poorly done 12v conversion that allows too much current to the coil or leaving the key on (see tip # 38). Too much current creates heat which melts the insulation. Insufficient resistance in a 12v conversion will do the same thing. Rarely do coils just “go bad.”

There are a few ways to see if a coil is bad, but it’s not possible to determine if a coil is good w/o some expensive testing equipment. If you detect a dead short or high resistance in the coil w/ an ohm meter, it’s bad. If it’s cracked, it’s bad. If a sidemount coil w/ battery voltage to the primary will not jump a ¼” gap from the secondary wire to the block, it’s bad. But, here is the hard part: even if you do not detect a short, even if it will produce a spark, even if it’s not cracked, that doesn’t mean the coil will work when it’s hot & under a load. So, it’s a process of elimination. If the tractor starts & runs fine for 30 minutes or an hour then cuts off & refuses to re-start, and you checked for spark at the plugs & it had no spark at all, AND you have the correct voltage at the coil that’s a good sign that you have a bad coil. Let it cool off, restart it & if you have a good spark, odds are it’s a bad coil. But, even then, you might end up w/ a spare coil on the shelf!

Bottom line.......coils do go bad, but I'll venture a guess that 75% of new N coils sold today are sold to folks who do not understand how to diagnose a poor spark problem or how a coil works. So, for those who don’t know any better, in a no spark situation the first suspect is usually the coil……and, more often than not, it isn’t the problem. And it isn't your problem.

So, on to troubleshooting.

First, check for fuel. Get a can & put it under the carb. Remove the bolt in the bottom of the carb; as long as the fuel is turned on, you should see gas flowing out of the carb. Let it run for at least 30 seconds. If it’s a dribble, or runs for 5 seconds & stops, or none at all, you have solved half the problem: it’s fuel related. If gas flows well out of the carb & only stops when you turn it off at the sediment bowl, chances are very good it’s not a fuel problem. So, next, turn the key on, crank the engine & look at the ammeter. What is the needle doing? Does it show a constant discharge, no movement at all, or does it move back & forth slightly? Next, get an old plug w/ the gap opened to at least 3/16", ground it to a rust & paint free spot on the engine, turn the key on & crank the engine. If the spark jumps the 3/16” gap, you probably don’t have a spark problem. If it won’t jump the 3/16” gap, you have a spark problem. If the ammeter needle shows a constant discharge, or doesn’t move at all, that also tells you that you have a spark problem. Jump the ignition switch w/ your jumper wire & see what happens. If it runs, you found the problem. If it doesn’t have spark after you jump the ignition switch, you have some more work to do. (and do not forget to turn the ignition switch off; see tip # 38)

Do you have battery voltage across the points when they are open? Verify the gap on the points at .025. Then, dress the points by running a piece of card stock or brown paper bag through them. New points sometimes have an anti-corrosive dielectric coating on them & old points can corrode or pick up grease from a dirty feeler gauge or excessive cam lubricant. (I always spray my feeler guage blade off w/ contact cleaner.) Make sure you have voltage across the points, as in past the insulator on the side of the distributor. That is a very common failure point on sidemounts, along w/ the attached copper strip. It's hard to find a short there because it is usually an intermittent . So 'wiggle' the insulator & the copper strip a bit when you are doing your checking. If you find the short there, the Master Parts catalog lists everything you need on page 154. You can make the strip and you could also make the insulators as well. But, somethings are just easier & in the long run cheaper to buy. Get the strip, 12209, screw 350032-S, 12233 bushing & 12234 insulator & just replace it all. If you just replaced the rotor & lost spark, put the old one back in. Insure that the rotor fits firmly on the shaft & that the little clip is there. Make sure the distributor cap is not cracked & doesn't have carbon tracks. Check continuity on the secondary coil wire. Make sure it is firmly seated in both the cap & the coil. In fact, replace it temporarily w/ a plug wire. Next, remove the secondary coil wire from the center of the distributor cap, turn the key on & crank the engine while holding the end of the wire 1/4" from a rust & paint free spot on the engine. You should see & hear a nice blue/white spark. If not, you have a bad coil or condenser. Just put the old condenser back in to eliminate that as a possibility.

Post back w/ results; I'll be interested in what the problem was.
50 Tips
 
If you haven't done so already, this is one of those posts I print & keep with my shop manual -- can't tell you how many times it has kept me from asking the same question over and over! Thanks, Bruce!

Cheers
Art
 
You're welcome Art. Glad to help.

I've chased my tail around to many old cars & tractors to guess about the fix.....and I'm to tight to just buy parts & see if that's the problem!
50 Tips
 
Thanks for the info. I'm positive its getting gas. I dont trust the ampmeter because it always shows a charge even when its shut down. It has a new ignition switch in it. The battery is new but I wore it down trying to start it. Do you think the battery is too low to power the coil? It's only good for a couple of cranks. (Havent put it on the charger yet. I also had the distributer cap off to make it easier putting the coil wire on. I didnt touch anything else. It ran perfect until the wire change. I just dont understand what I could have done to cause this. I guess the saying is true, "If it aint broke, dont fix it"
 
Your battery is too weak to both crank the engine and provid enought power to the coil so you need to fully charge it.


You had the cap off and changed the wires.......did you take off or change the rotor buton? Correct firing order?

Pull the cap again and mke sure the button is there.

Crank the engine with a finger over the #1 pug hole. Once you get compression rotat the engine to top dead center and see if the rotor button is pointing at the correct wire. Then check to make sure that the rest of the wires are in the correct order.

Rick
 
" Do you think the battery is too low to power the coil? It's only good for a couple of cranks. "

The short answer is yes.

You need a strong battery to:

1. Close the solenoid

2. Spin the starter

3. Engage the bendix

4. Provide voltage to the coil.

As the battery gets weaker, the first thing to fail is your spark. If the battery is almost totally dead, all you will hear is the solenoid clicking.

The more current you use to spin the starter, the less you have for the ignition.

Charge the battery. And after it's charged, check it per tip # 49.
50 Tips
 
So far all your seem to be doing is guessing instead of doing any real trouble shooting. Start by check for spark for the coil wire the center one on the cap. It need to be a blue/white spark that jumps a 1/4 inch gap or more. No spark or weak spark then check and clean the points and then check again. Just because you did not mess with something does not mean it is not the problem and you already had a problem that you only guess at the fix. If you have not spark after cleaning the points hot wire it as in run a wire from the battery ignition side to the ignition side of the coil and check for spark. If you spark when hot wired you have a bad wire or bad switch
 
When you changed the plug wires, did you use automotive resistor wire, or the copper core wire that the older machines need?
 
Thanks to all who responded with great tips. I found the problem. The replacement wires I bought from TSC which were supposed to be custom for the 8n. Turns out the coil wire was not making good contact with the coil. After a little modification, she fired right up. Thanks again to all who helped with some great help.
 
Tnx for the follow-up. Glad to hear you got it running.

BTW, I've never been impressed w/ the quality of N parts from TSC. This site has good quality parts as does Dennis Carpenter & nnalert's.
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