Just changed oil on the machine, used 40 weight oil. oil pressure when cold aroud 18-20 psi, as it warms up it seriously drops to around 1-5 psi. Also this is kind of a stupid question but here goes, How can one tell if the water is circulating, machine does not over heat but it has been cool out (Florida) and not really sure if its flowing thru the block. Any trouble shooting tips are and will be greatly appreciated. Thanks for the info. Robert
Open the radiator cap and see if the water is circulating. Simple, heh? (as one of our local favorites is fond of stating.) :wink:
Oil pressure is talked about pretty frequently here. First, confirm your gauge is accurate. Then presume your main bearings and/or oil pump is worn.
Spend a lot of money overhauling/re-building....or go to SAE 50 wt oil. :wink:
dennisinoklahoma
Member
The oil pressure should be a steady 38 to 40 on a great engine with good bearings. You could always hope the oil gage is bad but most likely you are losing oil through worn out bearings.
In the old days, on cars and trucks, on the cheap, we put in a larger capacity oil pump and / or dropped the oil pan and "rolled" in a new set of connecting rod bearings without doing anything to the crank. Rolling in a bearing is easy, turn the engine until the desired bearing is on bottom, take off the two bearing bols, push up the connectin rod and "roll" out the top half of the bearing and "roll" in a new top half, replace the lower half and torque to spec.
Most of the time, we did not roll the main bearings as they are a lot harder. If there is a center one, it can be rolled fairly easily.
I have not done any rolling of bearings on a Ford tractor but it should be really easy.
Of course you can sell the tractor if you inform the buyer the oil pressure is "a bit weak".
In the old days, on cars and trucks, on the cheap, we put in a larger capacity oil pump and / or dropped the oil pan and "rolled" in a new set of connecting rod bearings without doing anything to the crank. Rolling in a bearing is easy, turn the engine until the desired bearing is on bottom, take off the two bearing bols, push up the connectin rod and "roll" out the top half of the bearing and "roll" in a new top half, replace the lower half and torque to spec.
Most of the time, we did not roll the main bearings as they are a lot harder. If there is a center one, it can be rolled fairly easily.
I have not done any rolling of bearings on a Ford tractor but it should be really easy.
Of course you can sell the tractor if you inform the buyer the oil pressure is "a bit weak".
top and bottom hose hot after running?
1-5 psi hot idle with 40w oil?
I;'d chang ethe oil pressure gauge and see what that did.. might pick up a few psi.
if not above 10 total, then pull the oil relief spring and stretch it a bit.. see what you get.
if you can hit say.. 8-10 hot idle.. you got a real worn engine with some life still left in her..
soundguy
1-5 psi hot idle with 40w oil?
I;'d chang ethe oil pressure gauge and see what that did.. might pick up a few psi.
if not above 10 total, then pull the oil relief spring and stretch it a bit.. see what you get.
if you can hit say.. 8-10 hot idle.. you got a real worn engine with some life still left in her..
soundguy
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Might try 20w 50 instead of plain 50w will make it better in cold weather.Don't rebuild long as running good and some oil pressure. R.M. In AL
The 20W50 is SAE 20 wt oil and will give low oil pressure in a worn engine. Straight 50 is what I was recommending and is what I've seen good results with in such cases. (Don't mean to be contrary...just what I know to be true. IF you want thin oil...put in SAE 20 or 20Wanything.)
TheOldHokie
Well-known Member
- Location
- Myersville, MD 21773
You are on a roll today sir. I assume you believe viscosity to be the scientific measure of "thin vs thick" oil and the primary factor affecting oil pressure. That is why you are recommending use of a higher viscosity oil? Measured viscosity is of course what the SAE uses to specify motor oil grades and you are using their grade designations in your assertions about thin vs thick oils.
And here's what I know about SAE motor oil grades - SAE 20W50 motor oils have the same measured viscosity as SAE 50 motor oils at normal engine operating tempertures. In fact for most brands they will have the same measured viscosity at just about any temperature above 40C. That's a documentable fact. So how does that translate to lower oil pressure in a worn (or any other) motor when using the multi-grade?
TOH
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I had low oil pressure with the 30wt went to 20w50 increased my hot oil pressure pretty good thats the reason I suggested 20w50 because I know it works or did for me. Cold weather would be a problem with straight 50W ImhO R.M.IN AL
Yep. You do.
My only contention regarding this matter is that 20W50 oil is actually 20-wt oil with additives to make it behave like SAE50 oil at 100-degrees Centigrade. In common parlance....it's "thin" oil (SAE 20 with additives). It will start out behaving as 20 wt and the man is unhappy with the pressures he gets...so by increasing viscosity....I believe he'll see an increase in pressure. I base that upon my personal experience and observation having done EXACTLY the same excersize with my own, worn N-Ford tractor. I switched from multi to straight SAE 50 and my oil pressure became satisfyingly higher.
TheOldHokie
Well-known Member
- Location
- Myersville, MD 21773
It does indeed "behave like SAE 50 oil". That's because it [u:6c83620415]IS[/u:6c83620415] SAE 50 oil. SAE grade stamps are certifications that an oil meets certain minimum and maximum viscosity requirements - nothing more. There is no such thing as "an SAE 20 with additives" that behaves like an SAE 50 oil". If it behaves like an SAE 50 oil it is an SAE 50 oil and cannot be an SAE 20 oil. The SAE and API don't give a squat what the viscosity of the base stock is and neither should you. They don't measure it and it is not part of the grade designation as you seem to think. The only thing they care about is how the finished product performs.
Any multigrade product with an SAE 50 certification will have the "same" measured viscosity at normal operating temperatures (40C - 150C) as a monograde SAE 50 oil. I put "same" in quotes because the SAE grade specifications are not exact viscosities - the grade specifies a range of permitted viscosities. To know EXACTLY what viscosity a particular brand and grade has you need the product data sheet which will give you the actual tested number. If you got higher oil pressure with a mono-grade you simply got a brand that was higher in the grade band than the multigrade brand you were using. They might even have been made by the same manufacturer (e.g. Castrol) - the actual product test numbers were different. If you want I'll find you two brands that will get you the opposite result :shock:
SAE 20W50 is not SAE 20 oil - it's measured viscosity at both 100C and 150C is TOO HIGH and exceeds the maximum allowed for SAE 20 certification.
In addition to being grade SAE 50 the SAE 20W50 also has a second grade certification - SAE 20W - which indicates at extermely low temperatures (-30C) it will not gel, still flows readily, and can reliably be pumped on cold engine startup. A mono-grade SAE 20 does not qualify for this certification because it gets overly thick and/or gels at the certification temperature.
The two certifications in combination tell you the oil has a much higher viscosity index (VI) than [u:6c83620415]any[/u:6c83620415] monograde oil. That means it's viscosity doesn't undergoe extreme changes with fluctuations in temperature. Multigrade oils with higher VI's are superior year round performers - they work reliably in a much wider range of temperatures than low VI monograde oils.
If the SAE were to modify their grading scheme (they recently had a big conference to consider it) to something easier for the consumer to understand these sorts of discussions would end. Given a choice between two oils graded SAE 50 / VI 130 (currently SAE 20W50) and SAE 50 / VI 80 (currently SAE 50) virtually everybody (except possibly you George) would choose the SAE 50 oil with the higher VI.
HTH,
TOH
Well, TOH, ...the reason "standards" are used in most industries is so everyone is on the same page. Apparently you are using some other "standard" than the one the oil industry uses.
From Blackstone labs, a leading oil testing laboratory: [color=blue:319b7816d0]"The most common diesel use oil is 15W/40. It is an SAE 15W oil with a VI additive that leaves it the thickness of an SAE 40 weight at operating temperature." [/color:319b7816d0]
And, by the way, many many articles by such laboratories also use the common parlance of "thin" and "thick" when referencing viscosity, such as when they state: [color=blue:319b7816d0]"The advantage to the multi-weight is that when starting the engine, the multi-viscosity oil (with its [b:319b7816d0]thickness[/b:319b7816d0] of an SAE 5W when cold), allows the engine to spin over more easily"[/color:319b7816d0]
and[color=blue:319b7816d0]..."An apple is an apple, no matter what language you use to describe it. In the same respect, there are many ways to describe viscosity: SAE Engine, SUS (Seybolt Universal Seconds), cSt (Centistokes), ISO grade, etc. We use SUS. No matter what you call it, the number given simply defines the [b:319b7816d0]thickness[/b:319b7816d0] of the oil at the standard high temperature."[/color:319b7816d0]
And at the refining industry's public information website:[color=blue:319b7816d0] "Just remember that petroleum basestock viscosities are prone to significant change as the basestock is heated and cooled. As it cools, it "thickens" and as it heats it "thins".
To counteract that, petroleum oil manufacturers start with a basestock "thinner" than the "30" in "5w30" (or thinner than the "40" if they're manufacturing a 10w40 oil, etc.) and add pour point depressants so the oil stays as thin as possible in cold weather. Then they add viscosity index improvers that expand with increases in heat so that the oil will not thin out too much to meet the 30 weight classification at 100 degrees C. This is how they meet the multi-grade specification."[/color:319b7816d0]
Finally, I think most people recognize "Bob The Oil Guy" as an authority on this matter. From his website: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motoroil.html#MULTI-VISCOSITY
[color=blue:319b7816d0]"MULTI-VISCOSITY OILS
"Multi viscosity oils have polymers added to a light base (5W, 10W, 20W), which prevent the oil from thinning as much as it warms up. At cold temperatures the polymers are coiled up and allow the oil to flow as their low numbers indicate. As the oil warms up, the polymers begin to unwind into long chains that prevent the oil from thinning as much as it normally would. The result is that at 100 degrees C, the oil has thinned only as much as the higher viscosity number indicates. Another way of looking at multi-vis oils is to think of a 20W-50 as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50 weight would when hot."[/color:319b7816d0]
And that is what I meant when I compared it to a "20 weight" oil with additives to make it behave like a 50-weight oil at higher temps.
I'm tiring of this argument over semantics with you. I think I'll quit now. You carry on if you like.
(edited one time to add color to quotes for emphasis)
From Blackstone labs, a leading oil testing laboratory: [color=blue:319b7816d0]"The most common diesel use oil is 15W/40. It is an SAE 15W oil with a VI additive that leaves it the thickness of an SAE 40 weight at operating temperature." [/color:319b7816d0]
And, by the way, many many articles by such laboratories also use the common parlance of "thin" and "thick" when referencing viscosity, such as when they state: [color=blue:319b7816d0]"The advantage to the multi-weight is that when starting the engine, the multi-viscosity oil (with its [b:319b7816d0]thickness[/b:319b7816d0] of an SAE 5W when cold), allows the engine to spin over more easily"[/color:319b7816d0]
and[color=blue:319b7816d0]..."An apple is an apple, no matter what language you use to describe it. In the same respect, there are many ways to describe viscosity: SAE Engine, SUS (Seybolt Universal Seconds), cSt (Centistokes), ISO grade, etc. We use SUS. No matter what you call it, the number given simply defines the [b:319b7816d0]thickness[/b:319b7816d0] of the oil at the standard high temperature."[/color:319b7816d0]
And at the refining industry's public information website:[color=blue:319b7816d0] "Just remember that petroleum basestock viscosities are prone to significant change as the basestock is heated and cooled. As it cools, it "thickens" and as it heats it "thins".
To counteract that, petroleum oil manufacturers start with a basestock "thinner" than the "30" in "5w30" (or thinner than the "40" if they're manufacturing a 10w40 oil, etc.) and add pour point depressants so the oil stays as thin as possible in cold weather. Then they add viscosity index improvers that expand with increases in heat so that the oil will not thin out too much to meet the 30 weight classification at 100 degrees C. This is how they meet the multi-grade specification."[/color:319b7816d0]
Finally, I think most people recognize "Bob The Oil Guy" as an authority on this matter. From his website: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motoroil.html#MULTI-VISCOSITY
[color=blue:319b7816d0]"MULTI-VISCOSITY OILS
"Multi viscosity oils have polymers added to a light base (5W, 10W, 20W), which prevent the oil from thinning as much as it warms up. At cold temperatures the polymers are coiled up and allow the oil to flow as their low numbers indicate. As the oil warms up, the polymers begin to unwind into long chains that prevent the oil from thinning as much as it normally would. The result is that at 100 degrees C, the oil has thinned only as much as the higher viscosity number indicates. Another way of looking at multi-vis oils is to think of a 20W-50 as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50 weight would when hot."[/color:319b7816d0]
And that is what I meant when I compared it to a "20 weight" oil with additives to make it behave like a 50-weight oil at higher temps.
I'm tiring of this argument over semantics with you. I think I'll quit now. You carry on if you like.
(edited one time to add color to quotes for emphasis)
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Hallelujah!
Sure glad to see you surrender or quit or whatever semantics you attach
Sure you did at work
Now quit will save tax payers money and. You will have more time to do real work
Good deal for all!
Sure glad to see you surrender or quit or whatever semantics you attach
Sure you did at work
Now quit will save tax payers money and. You will have more time to do real work
Good deal for all!
TheOldHokie
Well-known Member
- Location
- Myersville, MD 21773
I am not arguing semantics and please do not lecture me on the value of, need for, or use of industry standards. Do you have any idea where I work or what I do for a living? I have been employed for over two decades at the United States National Institute for Standards and Technology. I help author, review, and implement domestic and international standards in a variety of emerging and established technologies. While tribology is not one of my fields of technical expertise reading and undestanding the basis, form, and scope of technical specifications outside my area of technical expertise is. The vast bulk of the information I have offered in this thread is gleaned from my personal study of the SAE J-300 - Engine Oil Viscosity Classification standard - not web site consumer information pages written by some quasi-knowledgable corporate marketeer. The J300 document, and only that document, defines what the viscosity grade numbers on a can of motor oil mean. It is a carefully written and excruciatingly precise document. It delineates the grades and specifies minimum and maximum perfomance chracteristics required for each grade. It also specifies the ASTM test methods and conditions to be used by certifying test labs to measure the performance of individual motor oil formulations that manufacturers submit for testing and certification. That is how that SAE seal gets affixed to a can of oil. If it meets the requirements it is that grade and seal. If it does not meet the requirements it is not that grade and does not get the seal.
When I post my goal is to inform and be informed in exchange. Your response to my earlier post appears to be an angry reaction to a perceived personal attack when none was intended. It also contains little helpful technical content. Consider:
[color=blue:a0fac7154b]Blackstone Labs:
The most common diesel use oil is 15W/40. It is an SAE 15W oil with a VI additive that leaves it the thickness of an SAE 40 weight at operating temperature. The advantage to the multi-weight is that when starting the engine, the multi-viscosity oil (with its thickness of an SAE 15W when cold), allows the engine to spin over more easily"[/color:a0fac7154b]
Well duhhh - I guess so - that's the whole idea. The careful use of SAE 15W as opposed to SAE 15 shows they know the distinction - hardly surprising given they are an oil testing lab. But besides explaining the basic concept of a mutilgrade oil it does nothing to clarify what the grade designations actually mean in terms of physical properties. For that you read SAE J-300.
[color=blue:a0fac7154b]
And Bob the Oil Guy:
"Another way of looking at multi-vis oils is to think of a 20W-50 as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50 weight would when hot." [/color:a0fac7154b]
It is indeed "another way of looking at it" that may help Bob's web audience grasp the concept and I'm sure it is in that vein that he offered it. But I'm a technical reviewer and I immediately note that Bob didn't say it was what the SAE 20W50 specification actually means. That's because Bob understands the specification and it doesn't mean that at all. He's a careful technical writer and he takes care not to make assertions that aren't technically accurate even in that forum. And I'm a careful reader and I take care not to read any technical content into assertions that isn't actually in them.
If you wish to take take exception to any of the factual content in my previous post please present a rational statement of that objection, preferably including an authoritative source for the facts supporting your objection, and I will respond in kind. This flurry of web snippets thrown to gether in a fit of pique doesn't qualify.
TOH
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Very good discussion GahorN and TOH both I learned lots about oil viscosity You all were way over my head..R.M. IN AL
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