9n rebuild problems

[lastcowboy32]

 

[HFJ]

(quoted from post at 14:05:22 08/17/23)

Or all the laws of physics have gone out the window.

i think it was Dodge that had a commercial that asked "If we break the laws of physics, will we be punished?"

no, because you can't. but good chance you'll be punished if you try.

 

[lastcowboy32]

Seriously, though...it's next to impossible to get one of these starters to spin backwards.

But, this tractor had a bunch of ignition work, right? What would happen if the spark plug wires were absolutely reversed? Or really messed up with respect to firing order? Would there be a ton of compression, making the starter work so darn hard that it's just drawing a TON of current?

 

[lastcowboy32]

(quoted from post at 10:29:11 08/17/23)

(quoted from post at 14:05:22 08/17/23)

Or all the laws of physics have gone out the window.

i think it was Dodge that had a commercial that asked "If we break the laws of physics, will we be punished?"

no, because you can't. but good chance you'll be punished if you try.

The other nagging thought is...

How hot is "hot", when we talk about the cable?

How how quickly is the battery voltage dropping?

Are we talking about... Situation 1: a battery cable getting too hot to touch within a couple seconds of cranking and a battery voltage dropping more than a few tenths of a volt as soon as the start button is pressed?

OR

Are we talking about... Situation 2: a battery cable that gets noticeably warm and a battery whose voltage drops after 30seconds of uninterrupted cranking?

I think that we've been talking about Situation 1, but maybe that's not the case.

Maybe it's Situation 2, and this tractor has an ignition problem all along, and the warm cables and battery voltage drop is just a product of cranking the engine for a long, long time, because it won't start.

A 12V battery will put hundreds of amps through that starter. At a middle of the road value of 350Amps...that's 122Watts of power through the battery negative cable (even if it's good, and the resistance is around 1 milliohm). 122Watts for thirty seconds will make a piece of cable warm, and 350 Amps for thirty seconds will make a battery puke, especially if it's been done a few times without recharge.

 

[Jim L WA]

He said the negative cable was smoking, to me that's hot He also said that the post on the starter is loose, sooooooo, I think we are on the right track.

 

[lastcowboy32]

(quoted from post at 13:50:45 08/17/23) He said the negative cable was smoking, to me that's hot He also said that the post on the starter is loose, sooooooo, I think we are on the right track.

Hopefully. It would be confusing for anybody. How can the starter have a short in it, if it still turns the engine? In many vehicles and tractors, that's next to impossible. But on an old N tractor with a 12V conversion, the starter only needs 6V to run...so it will turn until the short draws the 12V battery down far enough to get below that.

And...if you watch videos of people that make crude welders out of car batteries...you see there's plenty of energy there to get metal hot.

 

[Hobo,NC]

I have to ask how this post went off the rail when its a 5 min job to find the issue.

I am even asking myself should I charge more cuzz it sure looks like this is a complicated issue to tackle. I have came to the conclusion its outside of the rim of most everyone. If I read and did not understand are if I posted and still on the hunt it may be time to back up and ask myself how can I resolve this issue in 5 min.

What questions do I need the answer to, what tools do I need to gather the information.

Don't take my beating to bad its not uncommon for issues like this to make it 6 pages to get back up on the rails. What makes this tractor so different than my Honda Accord, my Ford truck the answer is NUTT'N!.

I can guarantee ya if it were a two hour job to get to the starter off I would know I was not wasting my time.

They all take the same diagnostic approach who would have thunk it.

 

[lastcowboy32]

(quoted from post at 05:11:49 08/18/23)
I have to ask how this post went off the rail when its a 5 min job to find the issue.

I am even asking myself should I charge more cuzz it sure looks like this is a complicated issue to tackle. I have came to the conclusion its outside of the rim of most everyone. If I read and did not understand are if I posted and still on the hunt it may be time to back up and ask myself how can I resolve this issue in 5 min.

What questions do I need the answer to, what tools do I need to gather the information.

Don't take my beating to bad its not uncommon for issues like this to make it 6 pages to get back up on the rails. What makes this tractor so different than my Honda Accord, my Ford truck the answer is NUTT'N!.

I can guarantee ya if it were a two hour job to get to the starter off I would know I was not wasting my time.

They all take the same diagnostic approach who would have thunk it.

Big difference between your Honda Accord and Ford Truck. They have a starter with an integrated solenoid. When you turn the key, the solenoid has to hold to keep the starter engaged. You would probably never get to the point where the battery negative gets hot, because the solenoid will disengage.

With those cars, a partial short in the starter itself probably results in maybe one turn of the starter and then the familar chatter of a solenoid engaging/disengaging.

Then they would try a jump start to rule out the battery... which would maybe get one or two starter cranks, or none... and then solenoid chatter.

At which point, most people, with any 12V vehicle made after...oh...1970...or even before... would say "it's the starter" (which includes the solenoid and the starter with the partial short)...they would replace the whole thing and be done with it. For many of these vehicles the bare solenoid either isn't available, or it's almost the same price as a reman starter. So you just replace the whole shebang. (And, in those cases, there isn't a lot of difference in the price for you to economically collect a diagnostic fee for determining whether the short is in the starter or solenoid.)

Not a big difference to you, because you know the difference between a starter, a solenoid, a starter with a solenoid, a mechanical switch, and a starter with mechanical switch. You also have inherent knowledge that the old N's were 6V systems with low ohm starters...and they will behave differently with a 12V battery than a new car with a starter that won't even engage with a weak 12V battery.

Should you charge more for that wisdom? Your choice.

Is that wisdom easy to get across to a person whose only frame of reference is modern thinking where people call switches "solenoids" and call starters with solenoids "starters"... via written text in a forum like this? With confounding opinions (such as my own)? No.

The one question that I ask myself is...if I trust people that have already jumped in on a thread, such as yourself, should I just read and refrain from commenting? Probably should. Because, I do trust that most commenters here would find this problem in about five minutes if they were on the ground with the machine.

This post was edited by lastcowboy32 on 08/18/2023 at 06:58 am.

 

[Jim L WA]

(quoted from post at 05:11:49 08/18/23)
I have to ask how this post went off the rail when its a 5 min job to find the issue.

I am even asking myself should I charge more cuzz it sure looks like this is a complicated issue to tackle. I have came to the conclusion its outside of the rim of most everyone. If I read and did not understand are if I posted and still on the hunt it may be time to back up and ask myself how can I resolve this issue in 5 min.

What questions do I need the answer to, what tools do I need to gather the information.

Don't take my beating to bad its not uncommon for issues like this to make it 6 pages to get back up on the rails. What makes this tractor so different than my Honda Accord, my Ford truck the answer is NUTT'N!.

I can guarantee ya if it were a two hour job to get to the starter off I would know I was not wasting my time.

I think we were trying to help a guy that doesn't understand basic DC circuitry. But we haven't heard from Patriot_knight since Wednesday. For all we know he found the problem and is in the clover now.

They all take the same diagnostic approach who would have thunk it.

 

[Hobo,NC]

(quoted from post at 19:55:33 08/18/23)

(quoted from post at 05:11:49 08/18/23)
I have to ask how this post went off the rail when its a 5 min job to find the issue.

I am even asking myself should I charge more cuzz it sure looks like this is a complicated issue to tackle. I have came to the conclusion its outside of the rim of most everyone. If I read and did not understand are if I posted and still on the hunt it may be time to back up and ask myself how can I resolve this issue in 5 min.

What questions do I need the answer to, what tools do I need to gather the information.

Don't take my beating to bad its not uncommon for issues like this to make it 6 pages to get back up on the rails. What makes this tractor so different than my Honda Accord, my Ford truck the answer is NUTT'N!.

I can guarantee ya if it were a two hour job to get to the starter off I would know I was not wasting my time.

They all take the same diagnostic approach who would have thunk it.

Big difference between your Honda Accord and Ford Truck. They have a starter with an integrated solenoid. When you turn the key, the solenoid has to hold to keep the starter engaged. You would probably never get to the point where the battery negative gets hot, because the solenoid will disengage.

With those cars, a partial short in the starter itself probably results in maybe one turn of the starter and then the familar chatter of a solenoid engaging/disengaging.

Then they would try a jump start to rule out the battery... which would maybe get one or two starter cranks, or none... and then solenoid chatter.

At which point, most people, with any 12V vehicle made after...oh...1970...or even before... would say "it's the starter" (which includes the solenoid and the starter with the partial short)...they would replace the whole thing and be done with it. For many of these vehicles the bare solenoid either isn't available, or it's almost the same price as a reman starter. So you just replace the whole shebang. (And, in those cases, there isn't a lot of difference in the price for you to economically collect a diagnostic fee for determining whether the short is in the starter or solenoid.)

Not a big difference to you, because you know the difference between a starter, a solenoid, a starter with a solenoid, a mechanical switch, and a starter with mechanical switch. You also have inherent knowledge that the old N's were 6V systems with low ohm starters...and they will behave differently with a 12V battery than a new car with a starter that won't even engage with a weak 12V battery.

Should you charge more for that wisdom? Your choice.

Is that wisdom easy to get across to a person whose only frame of reference is modern thinking where people call switches "solenoids" and call starters with solenoids "starters"... via written text in a forum like this? With confounding opinions (such as my own)? No.

The one question that I ask myself is...if I trust people that have already jumped in on a thread, such as yourself, should I just read and refrain from commenting? Probably should. Because, I do trust that most commenters here would find this problem in about five minutes if they were on the ground with the machine.

This post was edited by lastcowboy32 on 08/18/2023 at 06:58 am.

That twinkle in your eyes are just the bright lights, turn the lights off the basics are the same.

Post the info you have gathered from the poster that would lead you to a proper fast diagnosis. Before you start I will help ya "Its slim you have to pick it out of his text and its mostly of no practical use" I have to wonder is this just a game. Its surely turned into a replace parts till its fixed issue. The water has gotten extremely muddy.

 

[lastcowboy32]

My wife calls me "Green Eyes" for that Irish twinkle... but yeah...

I've messed with my N and read enough posts here to know that there are, like I said, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32... possibilities of what you have, depending on what was done during their history, based on how many things were tampered with/retrofit.

But, in the end...it's just an ignition and usually it's one of the few main configurations.

 

[Hobo,NC]

(quoted from post at 23:05:50 08/18/23)
My wife calls me "Green Eyes" for that Irish twinkle... but yeah...

I've messed with my N and read enough posts here to know that there are, like I said, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32... possibilities of what you have, depending on what was done during their history, based on how many things were tampered with/retrofit.

But, in the end...it's just an ignition and usually it's one of the few main configurations.

The basic approach to diagnose it is the same. You are still letting all those shinny things distract you.

You have one battery, one starter and one ground cable. The strategy is to get the potential energy to the starter and complete the loop.

Focus on that life will be good.