9n rebuild problems

[Patriot_knight]

I have a 1941 9m. I have installed a new
distributor, coil, plugs, wires, oil
lines, fuel line, sediment bowl and valve,
and rebuilt the carburetor. I have
replaced all battery, and starter wiring.
I have replaced the ammeter and oil gauge.
In the last someone converted this tractor
to a 12volt system. I have a 12v battery
and a 12v coil. This conversion included a
12v solenoid mounted below the battery. I
replaced all wiring as it was when I
bought it. It was running at the time. I
simply wanted to update the parts so it
would last me many years, as I can't just
go out and buy a newer tractor for $10k+.
My issue is that now I can't get it to
crank. The battery cables are wired
correctly for a 12v system, but they heat
up when I turn over the engine. Can
someone help me with a solution to this
problem?

 

[Abbby]

make sure its wired like this.

 

[JMOR]

"Can't get it to crank" is ambiguous. Means different things to different people. 1) does starter rotate engine? 2) engine rotates with starter but will not fire up and run?

 

[lha]

Did You use automotive cables for the battery? Even with 12v,negative ground,the tractor needs fairly large cables,or at least larger than the average car's cables. I have a '41 9n and I had cables made for the battery.

 

[Eman85]

"Crank" Please define what you mean.
Battery cables get hot because of being overloaded, should not happen on an N tractor.
On a seperate discussion you bought an 80yo tractor, it's not going to be what 10k tractor or a 3k tractor would be when it comes to working it.

 

[Mad Farmer]

If you want HD cables you can go to welding supply and get oversize finely braided copper cable used for electric welding, and make your own. Better than anything you can buy IMHO.

 

[Patriot_knight]

I turn the key, the starter engages, the engine turns over. ignition does not occur. As the engine turns over, the battery cables heat up and the battery reduces in power quickly. I have had this battery on the charger before I put it back on the tractor. I also bought a new battery just incase the battery was the problem.

 

[Patriot_knight]

This is that same tractor. I realize this tractor isn't nearly as complicated as a newer and more expensive tractor. I simply needed a tractor. This tractor was within my budget, so I bought it. I thought it would be a good idea to update and refresh the old and obviously worn parts as well as giving it a tune-up.

 

[Patriot_knight]

I did use automotive cables that appeared to be the same gauge wire and diameter to the original cables. I believe, I need to be using larger cables to carry more amperage.

 

[Patriot_knight]

I used a similar diagram to rewire the tractor. I'll use your diagram.

Caveat; I do not have lights installed at this time. The only power draw at this time is the miniscule amount the ammeter uses to register the amps on the gauge.

Also, I have bypassed the push button and am using a key starter switch. However, I did replace the push button parts and gaskets. The push button offers no safety feature, as someone in the past broke the neutral safety rocker beneath the push button and the shifter.

Further, every 9N 12v conversion chart does not have a 4 post solenoid. When I bought my tractor it had one on it. I tried wiring the tractor as per the diagrams removing the solenoid on the reverse side of the dash. I was told by a local tractor mechanic that it must have that solenoid. I showed him all of the charts online that do not include this part. He said the starter isn't getting the amps it needs and the coil won't get the power it needs withouit this part. I then replaced the part and I made no progress.

 

[Hobo,NC]

"I turn the key, the starter engages, the engine turns over. ignition does not occur. As the engine turns over, the battery cables heat up and the battery reduces in power quickly."

You probably have more than one issue but that statement should be addressed first. Some voltage readings and voltage drop testing would help narrow the issue down.

I know it would be asking for to much if I asked for a amperage draw reading : )... Everyone should have a voltmeter so at the least offer this information up. Info needed.

1) Before the event

2) During the event

3) And after the event, pay close attention cuzz we want to see how the battery stabilizes after the event so give it a Minuit to record how the battery recovers.

By now we should have learned to use gods gift of senses.
What do they tell you, touch, sight, hearing, smell and taste.

Touch) Cables getting hot

Hearing) does it sound like its cranking over at a normal speed

Smell) do you smell any foul odors.

Can we assume all is clean bright and tight, you have a good ground. You brought off the shelf pre-made battery cables you installed them as they came off the shelf. Can we assume you are using a New battery of the correct group size and not a recondition battery.

Get to work and provide this info.

In the mean time (I don't like to jump ahead) those off the shelf no name battery cables are normally JUNK. They use sight to trick you out of your money. They look nice and fat, the fat is mostly a heavy plastic cover. The appearance of nicely crippled ends are poorly assembled. My bet they are 4ga cables.

For a 12V system on a N If all the stars in the universe align 2ga should handle this but not for a long term event, 1ga better, 1/0 for the kill.

The only advantage of welding cable is weight and flexibility.

 

[HFJ]

(quoted from post at 01:22:46 08/13/23)

Further, every 9N 12v conversion chart does not have a 4 post solenoid. When I bought my tractor it had one on it. I tried wiring the tractor as per the diagrams removing the solenoid on the reverse side of the dash. I was told by a local tractor mechanic that it must have that solenoid. I showed him all of the charts online that do not include this part. He said the starter isn't getting the amps it needs and the coil won't get the power it needs withouit this part. I then replaced the part and I made no progress.

there is no "must" about the solenoid. it didn't come with one, and while they will work with one when setup properly, it's certainly not a "must have" for your model tractor, with or without a 12 volt conversion.

 

[Patriot_knight]

Ok, do I have some info but not all. It has been several days since I worked on the tractor. I don't spend all of my time on that. I'll probably get back on it once I have my current and more pressing project completed. I'm working on chicken coops and hog fences at the moment.

I can address the assumptions. The battery is the correct size or it was the battery that successfully started the tractor before I started trying to update the parts. I have had that battery on the trickle charger and only on the tractor when I attempt to rewrite it and try to start it again.

I have performed the plug wire arch test to see if there is fire. Spark is present.

The positive cable that was on the tractor when I bought it appeared to be off of an old automobile. The negative cable was extremely large. I put it back on the tractor.

As for the ground. I used a wire attachment for a drill to remove any paint or dirt from the area where the ground attaches to the body. I used my ammeter to check the ground.

I will reply shortly with voltage readings.

Truly, it would seem as simple a machine as this is that this sort of thing would be straight forward. I have rebuilt, refurbished, and restored old cars. Why is this tractor so difficult?

 

[Abbby]

Local mechanic is wrong. Does not have to have the solenoid. With that being said if you decide not to use the push button starter it may need to be that way.

 

[Hobo,NC]

(quoted from post at 12:10:24 08/15/23)
Ok, do I have some info but not all. It has been several days since I worked on the tractor. I don't spend all of my time on that. I'll probably get back on it once I have my current and more pressing project completed. I'm working on chicken coops and hog fences at the moment.

I can address the assumptions. The battery is the correct size or it was the battery that successfully started the tractor before I started trying to update the parts. I have had that battery on the trickle charger and only on the tractor when I attempt to rewrite it and try to start it again.

I have performed the plug wire arch test to see if there is fire. Spark is present.

The positive cable that was on the tractor when I bought it appeared to be off of an old automobile. The negative cable was extremely large. I put it back on the tractor.

As for the ground. I used a wire attachment for a drill to remove any paint or dirt from the area where the ground attaches to the body. I used my ammeter to check the ground.

I will reply shortly with voltage readings.

Truly, it would seem as simple a machine as this is that this sort of thing would be straight forward. I have rebuilt, refurbished, and restored old cars. Why is this tractor so difficult?

You think it difficult, its even worst on out end. We need some rock solid confirmation. It is straight forward so stop and start confirming each test.

How about explain how to confirm a ground with a ammeter. ?

How bout trying this.

voltage drop test

Are see if yo can get this in yer head.

https://www.autotechnician.org/updated-starter-voltage-drop-test-explained-in-plain-english/

starter voltage drop

Master this life will be good.

 

[Mad Farmer]

(quoted from post at 06:47:20 08/13/23)

"I turn the key, the starter engages, the engine turns over. ignition does not occur. As the engine turns over, the battery cables heat up and the battery reduces in power quickly."

You probably have more than one issue but that statement should be addressed first. Some voltage readings and voltage drop testing would help narrow the issue down.

I know it would be asking for to much if I asked for a amperage draw reading : )... Everyone should have a voltmeter so at the least offer this information up. Info needed.

1) Before the event

2) During the event

3) And after the event, pay close attention cuzz we want to see how the battery stabilizes after the event so give it a Minuit to record how the battery recovers.

By now we should have learned to use gods gift of senses.
What do they tell you, touch, sight, hearing, smell and taste.

Touch) Cables getting hot

Hearing) does it sound like its cranking over at a normal speed

Smell) do you smell any foul odors.

Can we assume all is clean bright and tight, you have a good ground. You brought off the shelf pre-made battery cables you installed them as they came off the shelf. Can we assume you are using a New battery of the correct group size and not a recondition battery.

Get to work and provide this info.

In the mean time (I don't like to jump ahead) those off the shelf no name battery cables are normally JUNK. They use sight to trick you out of your money. They look nice and fat, the fat is mostly a heavy plastic cover. The appearance of nicely crippled ends are poorly assembled. My bet they are 4ga cables.

For a 12V system on a N If all the stars in the universe align 2ga should handle this but not for a long term event, 1ga better, 1/0 for the kill.

The only advantage of welding cable is weight and flexibility.

Hobo, welding cable has many more strands and less resistance for same gauge. We used it for cables on "hot rods" where we put the battery in the trunk.
[u:3a8c95d15c]
Current travels on the surface of the strands[/u:3a8c95d15c], more small strands = less resistance.

 

[lastcowboy32]

(quoted from post at 06:32:31 08/15/23)

(quoted from post at 06:47:20 08/13/23)

"I turn the key, the starter engages, the engine turns over. ignition does not occur. As the engine turns over, the battery cables heat up and the battery reduces in power quickly."

You probably have more than one issue but that statement should be addressed first. Some voltage readings and voltage drop testing would help narrow the issue down.

I know it would be asking for to much if I asked for a amperage draw reading : )... Everyone should have a voltmeter so at the least offer this information up. Info needed.

1) Before the event

2) During the event

3) And after the event, pay close attention cuzz we want to see how the battery stabilizes after the event so give it a Minuit to record how the battery recovers.

By now we should have learned to use gods gift of senses.
What do they tell you, touch, sight, hearing, smell and taste.

Touch) Cables getting hot

Hearing) does it sound like its cranking over at a normal speed

Smell) do you smell any foul odors.

Can we assume all is clean bright and tight, you have a good ground. You brought off the shelf pre-made battery cables you installed them as they came off the shelf. Can we assume you are using a New battery of the correct group size and not a recondition battery.

Get to work and provide this info.

In the mean time (I don't like to jump ahead) those off the shelf no name battery cables are normally JUNK. They use sight to trick you out of your money. They look nice and fat, the fat is mostly a heavy plastic cover. The appearance of nicely crippled ends are poorly assembled. My bet they are 4ga cables.

For a 12V system on a N If all the stars in the universe align 2ga should handle this but not for a long term event, 1ga better, 1/0 for the kill.

The only advantage of welding cable is weight and flexibility.

Hobo, welding cable has many more strands and less resistance for same gauge. We used it for cables on "hot rods" where we put the battery in the trunk.
[u:b9423593d9]
Current travels on the surface of the strands[/u:b9423593d9], more small strands = less resistance.

At DC, current travels throughout a conductor.

At high frequency AC (say...100KHz and above... or less than a millisecond rise time) current starts to concentrate in the surface.

For all cases in between, there is a formula (see image)

But in general, with the rise times and DC currents involved stranded wire won't help much with a battery.

Now... plug wires? That's a different animal, they have to conduct a current spike for a spark. The rise time of a spark may be somewhere around a microsecond. That's why there are all sorts of crafty designs for spark plug wires.

That also matters for any welder that needs to start/maintain an arc.

As far as "hot rods"??? I'm not sure, unless your ignition is drawing spikes of current...my guess is that it probably isn't, because spikey current of the actual ignition should be low pass filtered into, more or less, a DC current to the coil or whatever is generating the spark voltages.

So... when all things are considered, Hobo's statement about stranding for an N tractor stands up to the smell test... welders and hot rods notwithstanding.

Suffice to say... it would be really, really, really improbable that the difference between spark and no spark for an N tractor was the stranding of a battery cable.

 

[Hobo,NC]

On his 12V system 4ga will do the job, he has other issues other than the gauge of the cable. The make up of the wire debate is moot for such a short run.

Its his job to find the source of his issue its not mine to blow out my arse my best guess, this is not rocket science.

 

[lastcowboy32]

(quoted from post at 10:55:40 08/15/23)
On his 12V system 4ga will do the job, he has other issues other than the gauge of the cable. The make up of the wire debate is moot for such a short run.

Its his job to find the source of his issue its not mine to blow out my arse my best guess, this is not rocket science.

What I can't figure out is what happened between solenoid and no solenoid.

These tractors will certainly run without a solenoid, if the old pushbutton starter works.

But I don't know if the solenoid is still there?

Is the solenoid now bypassed?

Was the tractor, as purchased, setup for positive or negative ground?

All of these questions bother me, because there IS a chance that the old "positive cable" was just the cable from the battery through some kind of starter switch to the solenoid... what I would call the "control cable"...that only has to pass enough cable to activate the solenoid.

When you have a solenoid, you have a "control cable" (mentioned above) and a "power cable"... which is in two pieces... one connects from the battery to the solenoid...and one connects from the solenoid to the starter.

If you bypassed the solenoid and then rewired your "power" circuit the wire that was previously used for "control"... you would heat that wire up enough to run your clothes dryer...

Also... if you left the solenoid in the circuit... but wired its output to the chassis, instead of the starter... every time the solenoid engages... you short your battery to the chassis, instead of powering the starter... which would also heat your battery cables like mad.


In short... I'm not sure if "positive cable" was correctly mapped from the old "with solenoid" configuration to the new "without solenoid" configuration.

Furthermore, I'm not even sure if the "positive cable" used to be ground or power/control.

These tractors are old...they were simple when they started... but you can get turned around in a hurry trying to undo conversions.

They started out as 6V... with no solenoid... and the positive battery terminal wired to the chassis.

But then, previous owners mess with them...Think about this... 6V vs 12 Volts... solenoid vs no solenoid... positive to chassis vs negative to chassis.

Three things, two choices... 8 combinations of how it could be done.

If somebody messes with the ballast resistor... multiply 8 x 2... now you have 16 combinations

Did they change the coil from internal resistor to no internal resistor? Now you have 32 combinations

So...give yourself some grace. Take a deep breath... and, at least re-trace what ignition components you put on and what you have...

 

[Btzj02]

We always seem to get side tracked on battery cable sizes. It would be great if one of the wizards out there would school us on the optimum size battery cable. I looked up the resistance of cables and here is what I found: 0 = .0983mOhms/ft, 1 = .124mOhms/ft, and 2 = .1563mOhm/ft. Assuming a 6 volt battery cranking at 350 amps the voltage drop is virtually the same for all cables, less than .055v drop.

Suffice it to say if a battery cable is getting hot without burning out a starter coil, while trying to start the tractor, then it would seem to me there is a large ground on the starting circuit and most likely the resulting voltage is too low to get a good spark. Trouble shoot between the battery and the starter. I would suspect a problem with the solenoid.