9n rebuild problems

[lastcowboy32]

(quoted from post at 14:31:39 08/15/23) We always seem to get side tracked on battery cable sizes. It would be great if one of the wizards out there would school us on the optimum size battery cable. I looked up the resistance of cables and here is what I found: 0 = .0983mOhms/ft, 1 = .124mOhms/ft, and 2 = .1563mOhm/ft. Assuming a 6 volt battery cranking at 350 amps the voltage drop is virtually the same for all cables, less than .055v drop.

Suffice it to say if a battery cable is getting hot without burning out a starter coil, while trying to start the tractor, then it would seem to me there is a large ground on the starting circuit and most likely the resulting voltage is too low to get a good spark. Trouble shoot between the battery and the starter. I would suspect a problem with the solenoid.

I mean...I wrote a book, but your paragraph pretty much sums it up.

The terminals often have more resistance than the cable itself, either due to poor crimp, poor connection to the battery or poor connection to the load (starter, solenoid...)

The whole solenoid thing...it just multiplies the possibilities.

I've replaced a lot of stuff on our old N...but I left the ignition alone...it uses the original pushbutton switch... 6V... positive ground...with the ballast resistor... just like it was built... why?

Because I'm an electrical engineer, and I didn't trust that, if I retrofit anything new/different... that I would always be able to repair/replace with parts compatible with the retrofit...essentially I would have to figure out my own manual instructions every time I worked on the ignition... which defeats the purpose of having a simple old tractor.

I do enough engineering at work... with our N... I just want to go to YT, Amazon or some other source and buy parts made for the 2N... and put it on according to the original manual...which you can still get.

The retrofits come and go... and so do their instructions.

 

[lastcowboy32]

I also want to say...just because I throw the word "electrical engineer" around... as somebody who went to five years' worth of college and did more math than I care to remember...

That is knowledge... and it is no substitute for wisdom/experience

I get corrected all the time by non-engineers with more N tractor experience in this group.

But... I also bristle when I read (somewhere back in this thread) where the original poster went to a mechanic and the mechanic said something like "you need the solenoid"... A statement like that is an example of a miscommunication or misunderstanding...

The solenoid is conditional...

You need the solenoid if (insert certain wiring configuration)

You don't need the solenoid if (you have a different wiring configuration)

Telling somebody that "you need the solenoid" without explaining the conditions just sets somebody up to mess up their old tractor.

 

[Patriot_knight]

Your reply seems to indicate that you are agitated for some reason. I'm here asking questions and trying to solve a problem that seems like it should be simple. As for the ground . You use the ohmmeter feature on your voltage meter to check for resistance in a connection. If the display reads 0.00, you have a good ground with negligible resistance. I appreciate your help. I will get back to the tractor soon.

 

[lastcowboy32]

I completely understand where you are coming from.

What irks me is the possibility that a mechanic just gave you a piece of blanket advice like..."you need the solenoid"... without giving you a little background wisdom (which is what a mechanic should have).

That background wisdom would have been a little explanation that the solenoid is a retrofit... and you will be left hung out to dry with respect to manuals and such...because...you can buy Ford 9N manual all day every day... you can buy original style Ford 9N parts all day every day...

But these retrofits need a little wisdom. You went to a mechanic for that, and you didn't get it.

And it's something that is hard to get across here in writing.

I just see it as a missed opportunity that would have saved you a lot of hassle.

I have no problem writing and pontificating all day about wire resistance, battery voltage vs current... etc, etc.

But it won't help you nearly as much as somebody with a little wisdom right there on the ground with you.

 

[lastcowboy32]

My comment to you is "give yourself some grace"... and it's based on the fact that you're working with a tractor that has been retrofit and messed with... which, if you read my comment about counting the possibilities... means that there are at least 8, if not 16 or more... possible ways that your tractor could have been wired...

as opposed to the 1 original way

You'll be OK... just appreciate the fact that sorting through all of those possibilities means that you'll have to trace your wiring very carefully and essentially work from scratch, because there isn't a manual to help you.

 

[lastcowboy32]

Abbby, JMOR and OH (Old Hokie) and others here have seen a ton of these retrofits, and if they were on the ground there with you ... would diagnose your issue in about 5 mins. That's the missed opportunity with your local mechanic.

As far as documentation, Abbby and JMOR and others have produced some good diagrams of a 12V conversion... one of which was shared with you early on.

I pasted a copy of it below and marked it up.

I circled, in red, where you will have a wildcard/mystery due to the solenoid.

The solenoid would have changed the wiring (possibly) between the key switch, the original pushbutton switch (if it's still there), the battery and the starter. There may have also been an aftermarket starter switch wired to the solenoid. That mystery is very hard to figure out remotely.

Some questions:

How did you start the tractor when you first got it? Did you just turn the key (like a modern tractor)? Did you push the button down by the shifting lever? Did you have an aftermarket button or switch somewhere else?

How do you have it wired to start now? Are you turning the key? Pushing the button by the shifting lever? Or using some other switch?

Do you still have the solenoid there? Is it connected to anything?

I bet that answering those questions will get you on the path to something helpful here.

 

[Lynn Patrick]

I'm wondering if the cables getting hot could be as simple as this "old" cable having a clamp-on end? Those things can look good but be corroded inside causing poor connection & heat.

 

[Patriot_knight]

I stated above, in the message chain that I have replaced all ignition parts. I will reiterate and explain further.

I replaced the push-button starter switch/solenoid. (it's not labeled a solenoid on any parts house listing, so I didn't realize it was a solenoid until I dug deeper to figure out what the solenoid would be on the old push-button system.)

When I purchased the tractor, the original push button starter switch/ solenoid was severely rusted and inoperable. It had been bypassed and a 4-post solenoid had been installed with a 4-post keyed ignition switch. I realize now that the keyed switch requires the external solenoid.

I tried the push button when I refurbished the shifter cover and replaced the gasket. I removed it because I wanted to utilize the neutral safety feature in the push button system. I have this tractor and two other "parts" tractors. In all three tractors, the small boat-shaped piece beneath the shifter which prohibits the tractor from starting in gear is broken and I didn't want to spend the money to buy a replacement. Therefore, while I did replace the push button system, it was not for the reason I initially intended.

When rewiring the tractor using the push button system, I used the youtube video from Dan and Rachel Gingell found here

https://youtu.be/YbyIBLBNOKM

When I tried to start the tractor, the negative cable became hot and started to smoke. I thought I had done something wrong, cur I meticulously went back through their video to make sure that I had wired everything according to their instructions. I also consulted the 6 to 12v conversion diagrams to make sure I had wired everything correctly. I had done.

Out of frustration, I backed up and bought a replacement 4 post solenoid and rewired the system using the automotive-style keyed ignition thereby bypassing the push button.

Having been converted to a 12v system, the tract or was set up on a negative ground.

The tractor did not have the original resistor block. It only had a white ceramic resistor. This was wired coil to the resistor to the battery +. The alternator was also wired through the ammeter to the battery +.

As per the video above, I purchased and installed the original resistor block. The tractor has both the original resistor as well as the ceramic resistor.

The tractor is wired thusly, the - battery cable is bolted directly to the body beneath the battery housing. The + battery cable is bolted to the battery side of the solenoid. A second cable goes from the starter side of the solenoid to the starter. The smaller terminal intended for the coil bypass to send the full 12v to the coil for ignition is wired as so. The smaller terminal intended for the ignition switch is connected to the appropriate position on the keyed ignition switch. The alternator is wired through the ammeter directly to the + battery terminal.

 

[HFJ]

(quoted from post at 12:41:18 08/16/23)
I stated above, in the message chain that I have replaced all ignition parts. I will reiterate and explain further.

I replaced the push-button starter switch/solenoid. (it's not labeled a solenoid on any parts house listing, so I didn't realize it was a solenoid until I dug deeper to figure out what the solenoid would be on the old push-button system.)

When I purchased the tractor, the original push button starter switch/ solenoid was severely rusted and inoperable. It had been bypassed and a 4-post solenoid had been installed with a 4-post keyed ignition switch. I realize now that the keyed switch requires the external solenoid.

I tried the push button when I refurbished the shifter cover and replaced the gasket. I removed it because I wanted to utilize the neutral safety feature in the push button system. I have this tractor and two other "parts" tractors. In all three tractors, the small boat-shaped piece beneath the shifter which prohibits the tractor from starting in gear is broken and I didn't want to spend the money to buy a replacement. Therefore, while I did replace the push button system, it was not for the reason I initially intended.

When rewiring the tractor using the push button system, I used the youtube video from Dan and Rachel Gingell found here

https://youtu.be/YbyIBLBNOKM

When I tried to start the tractor, the negative cable became hot and started to smoke. I thought I had done something wrong, cur I meticulously went back through their video to make sure that I had wired everything according to their instructions. I also consulted the 6 to 12v conversion diagrams to make sure I had wired everything correctly. I had done.

Out of frustration, I backed up and bought a replacement 4 post solenoid and rewired the system using the automotive-style keyed ignition thereby bypassing the push button.

Having been converted to a 12v system, the tract or was set up on a negative ground.

The tractor did not have the original resistor block. It only had a white ceramic resistor. This was wired coil to the resistor to the battery +. The alternator was also wired through the ammeter to the battery +.

As per the video above, I purchased and installed the original resistor block. The tractor has both the original resistor as well as the ceramic resistor.

The tractor is wired thusly, the - battery cable is bolted directly to the body beneath the battery housing. The + battery cable is bolted to the battery side of the solenoid. A second cable goes from the starter side of the solenoid to the starter. The smaller terminal intended for the coil bypass to send the full 12v to the coil for ignition is wired as so. The smaller terminal intended for the ignition switch is connected to the appropriate position on the keyed ignition switch. The alternator is wired through the ammeter directly to the + battery terminal.

the part that you have been referring to as a solenoid that was originally on the tractor is not a solenoid. it is a mechanical switch that is actuated by a rod that runs from the push button on the trans cover.

you have replaced it with an actual solenoid, which this tractor did not come with.

i suggest you remove that solenoid and replace the switch it came with. the broken neutral safety thing isn't going to affect the linkage to the switch, is it?

are you sure the orig switch was even defective? i thought you said the tractor started when you got it.

This post was edited by HFJ on 08/16/2023 at 09:05 am.

 

[HFJ]

oh, sorry, i see it had already been replaced when you got it. i'd still advise replacing that switch. they're cheap and simple to replace. go back to the wiring that abbby posted the diagram for.

 

[lastcowboy32]

OK...this is just a language thing.

"Solenoid" implies a coil of wire wrapped around a coil to make a magnet. Modern cars use "Solenoid Switches"... what you call a "four post solenoid"...which have a solenoid magnet as a switchable magnet ...the field from that magnet pulls a contact closed to switch. That's why there are four posts... two posts for the solenoid magnet control circuit... two posts for the switch power circuit.

In a "solenoid switch" system, the key routes power to operate the solenoid control circuit, with small gauge wire, connected through to the two small posts. The power circuit connects battery to starter through the two large posts with heavy cables. The key energizes the solenoid... the solenoid becomes a magnet... it pulls the contact closed...and now your power circuit is switched on...so the starter does its thing.

Solenoid switches are so common nowadays, that people just call any switch in a starter system solenoid... and even go so far to call a mechanical two post switch a "solenoid" or "two post solenoid"...

Makes sense... until you talk to people about these old N tractors. They were originally equipped with a mechanical switch. There is no solenoid magnet involved. You press the button, it pushes contacts closed... the starter does its thing. You will never find the word "solenoid" in original 2N documentation, because there was none. no magnet. It is literally a mechanical switch and nothing else.

You'll have a lot more luck if you stick to using "solenoid" or "4 post solenoid" to refer to your 4 post solenoid... and "switch" to refer to the original-style 2 post part.

That simple tidbit right there will make your life much easier.

Thanks for going through that explanation, I know it was a pain...but it helps everybody help you.

This post was edited by lastcowboy32 on 08/16/2023 at 09:59 am.

 

[lastcowboy32]

Your wiring description sounds correct.

I'm going to critique a couple of beliefs that you have expressed:

1. The notion that you can test ground with a multimeter on the "ohms" setting. The real answer there is "yes" and "no". Multimeters try to pass a little tiny bit of current through a connection to measure resistance. They are typically not accurate below a tenth of an ohm or so. During cranking, your battery is passing hundreds of amps...say 350 as was mentioned above. To get a drop of 6 volts...you would only need a resistance of 6Volts/350Amps... or 0.017 ohms

Is your multimeter accurate to 17thousandths of an ohm?

For that level of accuracy, you need a four wire benchtop ohmmeter.

That is why OH (Old Hokie) asked you to measure voltage at various locations during cranking. You can find bad terminations and wires more easily by letting the 350 cranking amps flow through them and measuring the voltage drop.

Your multimeter will see voltage drops down to 0.1Volts way more accurately than it can measure resistance less than 17thousands of an ohm.

2. The notion that your keyed ignition switch needs a solenoid.

Again, the answer there is "yes" or "no". Most keyed ignition switches have "on", "start" and sometimes "accessory" terminals. You can use your keyed ignition switch and only wire the "on" terminal, leave the start terminal unwired... and implement the "start" function with a separate switch (either mechanical or solenoid activated by a mechanical switch).

The only thing you can't do with your keyed ignition switch is route battery power through it directly to the starter...unless you want it to be a hand-warmer...and then go poof.

 

[HFJ]

here's a view of the original start switch setup:

the button on the trans cover pushes the horizontal white rod, which pushes the button on the back of the switch to close the contacts. the switch is held to the front of the steering box with 2 bolts. one cable in from battery, one out to starter - no connection to ignition switch.

 

[Jim L WA]

Patriot_knight, What HFJ is telling you is good advice. I found that boat shaped piece on my 2N broken too. I had it welded up and it's as good as new.
But if your ground cable is smoking hot then there is an almost direct path to ground somewhere. I understand the tractor started and ran before you got into it, but it sure sounds to me like the starter motor has gone south. Have you tried jumping directly to it? Another test might be to remove the cable from the starter and then turn the starter key to the start position and see what happens. You should only hear the solenoid click and no cables get warm.
By the way, you said you put the OEM ballast resister back in? You don't need that bypass wire going from the solenoid to the coil.

 

[Patriot_knight]

All of those parts are present. The "actual" start switch in black on the left in your image has been replaced with the corresponding gasket. The push button works and has pass-through power. When I first wired the tractor to start, I thought I could create a simple circuit to start the tractor using the push button and temporarily bypassing the ammeter and alternator to test the engine and tune the carburetor.

I connected the negative battery cable to the body. I connected the positive cable from the battery to one side of the push button switch and the starter cable to the other side. I attached the coil directory to the battery with the ballast ceramic resistor in line. This resulted in a hot negative cable and the battery draining fast. I used the same cables that had been on the tractor when I bought it. Remember it ran when I bought it.

 

[Patriot_knight]

I haven't thought about the starter being bad, because it spins the motor over. However, the stud where the starter cable is connected is loose where it passes through the starter outer housing. If I remove the starter case, is there a way to tighten this post to ensure it isn't grounding out? The next rainy day, I'll get out there and check the starter out and see if that might be the culprit.

 

[lastcowboy32]

(quoted from post at 21:36:10 08/16/23)
I haven't thought about the starter being bad, because it spins the motor over. However, the stud where the starter cable is connected is loose where it passes through the starter outer housing. If I remove the starter case, is there a way to tighten this post to ensure it isn't grounding out? The next rainy day, I'll get out there and check the starter out and see if that might be the culprit.

I've never tried this before, but in your situation, it might give you some sanity. Disconnect the power wire from your starter, make sure the end isn't touching the chassis anywhere... then go through the motions of how you start the tractor.

If you do this and the battery cable stays cool and, your battery stays up...then you know that you don't have a short somewhere else and...either...

-The battery is junk and can't hold voltage up with the starter applied.

or

-Your negative cable has broken strands or a bad crimp or some other fault that gives it more resistance than it should have. (maybe some strands broke during the removal and re-installation?...if that's the case, you could have perfectly clean and tight terminals and a perfect ground point on the chassis...and it would still be high resistance)

or

-Your starter is just plain drawing too much current...which, I agree with your initial thought...how can the starter be bad if it still turns the tractor over? That puzzles me as much as you. But...it's a 6V starter in a 12V system...it's going to draw a lot of current to begin with. A 12V battery makes those old 6V starters jump, usually that's a good thing.


If you can get your hands on, or borrow, an "Insta-Power" (one of those portable battery jumper boxes) or something like that before you get to the tractor again, it might help your troubleshooting. You could leave your starter disconnected from the rest of your system and just plain try to operate it directly from the Insta-Power. If the "Insta-Power" cranks the starter fine, and its cables stay cool...that tells you something.


If you do any of this starter troubleshooting standing next to the tractor PLEASE BE SAFE...MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE THE TRACTOR IS IN NUETRAL .

Good luck when you get back to it.

 

[lastcowboy32]

The terminals on those starters are notoriously loosey goosey...

It's an electrical connection and people torque them like a wheel lug.

The terminal on my 2N's starter has always been touchy and a little loose. I always try to keep it from turning as best I can, while I tighten the nut on the terminal.

My cable terminal on the starter is clean and just tight enough. Where the stud goes into the starter is a little loose, has been for 9 years since I've had the tractor. So it's not a sure sign that you have a short, also not a sure sign that you don't.

Anyway, this whole situation has puzzled me enough to look around at ways to test a starter motor with a multimeter (my diatribe about how multimeters don't measure low ohms very well notwithstanding).

The resistance of your average starter should be 1 to 2 ohms, which may be in the range of your multimeter to measure accurately. Just "zero" it first by touching your probes together and seeing what it reads. Then subtract that number from what you measure from the starter positive terminal to the starter chassis. Measuring something around 1 ohms with a multimeter is WAY, WAY more possible than measuring the resistance of a battery cable, or starter cable itself, which should be thousandths of an ohm.

This website has some good info on testing starters with solenoids and starters without solenoids with a multimeter.

https://electronicshacks.com/how-to-test-a-starter-with-a-multimeter/

This post was edited by lastcowboy32 on 08/17/2023 at 05:09 am.

 

[Jim L WA]

(quoted from post at 04:54:47 08/17/23)

(quoted from post at 21:36:10 08/16/23)


I've never tried this before, but in your situation, it might give you some sanity. Disconnect the power wire from your starter, make sure the end isn't touching the chassis anywhere... then go through the motions of how you start the tractor.

If you do this and the battery cable stays cool and, your battery stays up...then you know that you don't have a short somewhere else and...either

or

There"s an echo on this board.

-Your negative cable has broken strands or a bad crimp or some other fault that gives it more resistance than it should have. (maybe some strands broke during the removal and re-installation?...if that's the case, you could have perfectly clean and tight terminals and a perfect ground point on the chassis...and it would still be high resistance)

or

-Your starter is just plain drawing too much current...which, I agree with your initial thought...how can the starter be bad if it still turns the tractor over? That puzzles me as much as you. But...it's a 6V starter in a 12V system...it's going to draw a lot of current to begin with. A 12V battery makes those old 6V starters jump, usually that's a good thing.


If you can get your hands on, or borrow, an "Insta-Power" (one of those portable battery jumper boxes) or something like that before you get to the tractor again, it might help your troubleshooting. You could leave your starter disconnected from the rest of your system and just plain try to operate it directly from the Insta-Power. If the "Insta-Power" cranks the starter fine, and its cables stay cool...that tells you something.


If you do any of this starter troubleshooting standing next to the tractor PLEASE BE SAFE...MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE THE TRACTOR IS IN NUETRAL .

Good luck when you get back to it.

 

[lastcowboy32]

Yes there is. It looks like I said the same thing you did. Some call it an echo. Others call it "convergent evolution"...same idea from two different places. I apologize for not reading your reply before writing mine.

Thanks for the laugh. It's funny cuz it's true.

Hopefully it helps the OP, because I'm honestly more than a smidge baffled...unless there is some kind of partial short in the starter, but it still draws enough current through the starter coil to spin the tractor...

Or the starter is spinning backwards.

Or all the laws of physics have gone out the window.