Ag Mechanics Class Ford 9N Engine Rebuild - Sleeve Size

[FarmallCT]

Hi All,

I am student teaching an agricultural mechanics class and as part of the class I am having the students rebuild a Ford 9N that was recently donated. As part of the project, we are tearing the engine apart and putting a rebuild kit into it as well as a 12 volt conversion kit.

My main question is, is there any way to identify the size of the sleeves before you have them out of the engine? I am aware these tractors could take two different sleeve sizes depending on the year, .040 and .090. This being a Ford 9N it came factory with .040 sleeves, which means they could have been upgraded to .090. The serial number is *9N97499* and the shop manual states that the star (*) designates the .040 pistons. Based on this, as well as it being a one owner only tractor with reportedly low power last time it was run, it is believed that the engine is an original .040 sleeve size engine. A engine kit with .040 sleeves was ordered based on this.

We just took the head off the engine today and one of the first things noticed was that the pistons are domed. From what I have found, some say this was a factory option, can anyone confirm? We are trying to determine if this engine has been rebuilt or not. The only thing that would suggest engine work is that the distributor has the "Reconditioned by Authorized Reconditioner" ribbon, though this could certainly have been done without any engine work being completed. The parts for the engined and electrical have already been ordered from Steiner due to the tight timeline needed and the time to process the order, so just trying to confirm before they are shipped so it can be changed if needed.

If anyone else has any other suggestions or advice please feel free to comment. This is my first time working on a Ford engine and it is a bit different than the Farmall engines I am used to.

Thanks,

~FarmallCT

 

[RCP]

If you are buying a kit with sleeves, they will be a matched set and I do not see that it matters what is installed now. I would be more concerned that the bores in the block are correct and the only way to know that is to remove the existing sleeves.

Am I missing something?

Rich

 

[Mike M]

I do not know your answer, but would like to wish you good luck ! lol.
I did one of those Ford engines years ago. Those thin sleeves are a pain as well as those weird valves with the end to big to come out and 2 pc. valve guides. IIRC the replacement valves and guides were a lot better to work with.
I have done a few small Farmalls and they were a lot better to deal with.
Nice original looking tractor though. So is it actually worn out and NEEDING rebuilt ? or just getting done since it is all you have to work on ?

 

[FarmallCT]

Hi Rich,

Yes we are buying the kit with matched sleeves and pistons. The part that matters for the sleeves is the bore in the block. The engine was originally .040 sleeves. To make it .090, the block would have to be bored out. This means if we get .040 sleeves and it was bored to .090, the .040 sleeves would be too loose in the bore. Based on what we know we do not believe any work was done to the engine, but I know the only true way to confirm is to remove the sleeves. Since that will not happen until next week, we were trying to see if there was another way to confirm.

Thanks,

~FarmallCT

 

[Bob]

(quoted from post at 14:06:35 11/01/19) Hi Rich,

Yes we are buying the kit with matched sleeves and pistons. The part that matters for the sleeves is the bore in the block. The engine was originally .040 sleeves. To make it .090, the block would have to be bored out. This means if we get .040 sleeves and it was bored to .090, the .040 sleeves would be too loose in the bore. Based on what we know we do not believe any work was done to the engine, but I know the only true way to confirm is to remove the sleeves. Since that will not happen until next week, we were trying to see if there was another way to confirm.

Thanks,

~FarmallCT

The .040 wall sleeves were made of steel and the .090 wall sleeves are made of cast iron.

If you can tell the difference in the look of steel vs. cast iron you can tell by looking at 'em!

If the plan is too destroy them anyhow and replace them, it would be easy enough to carefully catch the top of one with a small chisel, give it a tap, and note the sleeve bends or breaks.

 

[RogerinIowa]

I don't think domed pistons were ever factory installed...
It has been a long time, but the sleeves in your pictures look rather thick. Can you measure?
Doesnt appear to be any signs of oil burning. Maybe you only new rings and valve grind.

 

[RogerinIowa]

You can see the outside of the sleeve. Measure the diameter. Information for the bore sizes is available somewhere.

 

[caterpillar guy]

With the block upside down you should be able to see the bottom of the sleeve and tell or measure them.

 

[the tractor vet]

The best way is to tear the engine down and pull the sleeves and put the inside mic to it . During the second world war it was not uncommon for them to remove the sleeves and install and over sized piston and run it direct on the block bore due to parts shortage during the war . Then once the war was over and they needed rebuilt again the block needed bored to clean up and then the oversized sleeve was used to go back to somewhat Std. I am by no means and expert on the ford tractors as i have only worked on a hand full in over 35 year but this is what i was told buy and old Ford mechanic and he is he one that told me to Mic first then order as sometimes you may find a crack in the org cylinder wall that may need to be bored sleeved and bored again to take what ever sleeve you need for the rest. Tech your Kiddies wright and let them lean the finer art of usen machinist tools and how to read them You put the mic.'s to everything to see where your at BEFORE you DO .

 

[RCP]

If you have access to an ultrasonic thickness gauge and the right coupon to calibrate it, you could probably make the measurement in place.

Rich

 

[Hobo,NC]

I had to go to classic view to see the pix

Those are stock pistons I was hope'N they were pop'ups cuzz I was gonna try and buy'em from ya...

You should be able to see the sleeve from the bottom and easily tell if they are 40 are 90's... If you can not confirm it has sleeves DON'T GO TRYING TO REMOVE THEM... Who knows where its been are what have been done to it in the past...

Don't believe what you read are think as far as a matched set... Always double check piston fit to the sleeve...

I hope y'all get the manual out and confirm every measurement that's where the learning is at... Find out what you don't know :wink:

I would have left it 6V and I am a 12V fan... Someone will buy the 6V parts :wink: :wink:

BTW looks like a nice N

 

[Leroy]

Orignal 6 Volt is better than any 12 volt conversion. If I was looking to buy a tractor and found it was converted I would just walk on past and forget it.

 

[Bob]

(quoted from post at 22:42:12 11/01/19) Orignal 6 Volt is better than any 12 volt conversion. If I was looking to buy a tractor and found it was converted I would just walk on past and forget it.

WOW, Leroy! WHERE did all that hatred come from?

Good for you though, leaves more choices for the rest of us!

 

[FarmallCT]

Is there any reason you do not like the 12v conversion? We decided to switch it to make it easier to start, as well as to make it negative ground like all the other equipment, since we are planning to use this tractor on a semi regular basis for tractor driving and with a trailer.

~FarmallCT

 

[FarmallCT]

Unfortunately we do not have access to that type of gauge. We are currently struggling to even find a "normal" caliper to take the measurements as prior to this, as the school has not done much of any mechanical work in the past.

~FarmallCT

 

[FarmallCT]

Thank you for the confirmation, I was not sure if the stock pistons were domed or flat topped.

As far as seeing the sleeve from the bottom, that cannot be done until we pull and split the engine, as the oil pan is part of the frame. We do have a manual for the tractor which I have been referring to, will try to take measurements on Monday when we
will hopefully have the right caliper to take the measurements.

Any reason you would stick with 6v over 12v? The idea with the conversion is so that most kids will be able to start it, use it, and jump start it if necessary, since the wiring will then be the same as all the other machines.

Thanks again, certainly is a nice tractor and seems to be mostly original, even has nice patina on the hood which is uncommon in this area.

~FarmallCT

 

[FarmallCT]

That is the plan for next week. The hard part with these tractors compared to the Farmalls I am used to is that the oil plan is part of the frame so the engine has to be pulled to even just see the underside of the engine.

~FarmallCT

 

[FarmallCT]

Thank you. Is there any good way to tell the difference between the two metals without damaging the sleeve? We can try what you suggested, though it would be ideal if we did not have to damage it to tell the difference, just in case we find we do not
need to replace the sleeves.

~FarmallCT

 

[Leroy]

In 75 years of having this tractor with orignal system never had a problem with it and had more alternators fail than ever a generator and never a problem with it starting after we got a correct manifold on it. Only reason ever for the 12 volt negetave system would have been for using something like a foam marker on a field sprayer. That I had wanted to get but never did. All warning lights you should ever need will work good with thar 6 volt system. 6 volt flashers out ther, just have to look for them same as 6 volt bulbs. Only thing would need a 12 volt system for is if you wanted to put a GPS or backup camara on it.

 

[Hobo,NC]

I don't have to make chit up everyone knows 6 are 12V the tractor will run exactly the same...

I prefer 12V BUT I see no reason to not keep it 6V in your situation as long as the 6V system is functional...

If you have to spend big money to keep it 6V then I would go the EZ rout and convert it to 12V..

I assume the #1 goal is to get it back in running condition spend your money there and worry about 6 are 12 later...

Good folks like Bob will fill you in on how to test your 6V generator while you have it down...