Almost running D. Help!

[txasylum]

I got the 28 D spinning, everything cleaned, new float in carb, gas running through, new plugs, new wires (getting spark), and timing is set with tick marks on flywheel set to number 1 top dead center.

Problem, it pops on the number 2 cylinder. I get smoke out of the exhaust and number 2 petcock (flame once). I'm not so sure number one is firing. It might but it seems to pop and blow smoke into the carb (not positive). But I am not getting smoke blowing out of number 1 petcock as I rotate the flywheel like I do with the number 2 petcock.

On this 28 D it is hand start, so I can only get a few spins on it before I am worn out.

Any advice on what I've described?

 

[bmiller36]

Try reversing the wires on the mag, might be 180 outy of time. Hope this helps. Bob

 

[txasylum]

I changed the wiring and boy she didn't like that. I am positive number one wire is to number one cylinder. I get a pop every now and then. Then as I turn it smoke pushes out of the number 2 petcock. I think number 1 is popping too, but I don't get any smoke pushing out of the petcock (I think I get some out of the carb but hard to tell).
I think I will wait until I get some more help to pull me and I will try to get it running by popping it into gear.

Unless there are any other suggestions.

 

[JD Mike]

Can you adjust the spark advance? Earlier D's had a lever next to the throttle to advance or retard the timing. If I recall, one is supposed to pull this lever most of the way back to retard the spark while starting and then advance the spark as you throttle up. Just throwing that out there, sounds like a timing problem to me. Good luck!

 

[txasylum]

There is no lever to adjust the timing, but I can advance it or retard it by loosening a couple bolts and turning it, then tightening it up. I think I am going to advance the timing a bit and see what happens, but my arms are worn out already for tonight. Have to wait until tomorrow.

 

[pbb]

I put new points and wires on my 35 D and it wouldnt start after i had changed it.I hand cranked it until i hurt my back and then tried to pull start it. It still wouldnt start. The next day i took the plugs out and turned it over with the wires still hooked up to the plugs to see if it was firing and on the right cylinder.Come to find out it was 180 degrease out. I knew i wired it right but when my dad had it he had the mag 180 out. I switched the wires and it fired off. Take your plugs out and turn it over to see if it is firing on the right cylinder.

 

[MSD]

Had a 29 D one time that would almost go every time you tried spinning it till you couldn't anymore. Put a chain on it and 3 ft. later it was running.

 

[barry county]

When you remove the plugs and roll engine over, do they both spark. Some old mags for deeres will only spark on the first two impulse clicks, then NOT spark the next two. I had a 29 GP that did that. I loosened coupler behind mag, rotated to proper impulse, and she fired right up. Prior to that, it would do what your describibg. Good luck.

 

[txasylum]

Yes, they are sparking on every impulse.

I just sprayed starter fluid into number 2. It fired back into the carb. I know this sounds like a timing problem, but everything is set correctly. Just to confirm, my LH RETARD SPARK mark on the flywheel is lined up with the mark on the transmission case. This is where number 1 is TDC. Right?

(quoted from post at 12:21:58 03/07/13) When you remove the plugs and roll engine over, do they both spark. Some old mags for deeres will only spark on the first two impulse clicks, then NOT spark the next two. I had a 29 GP that did that. I loosened coupler behind mag, rotated to proper impulse, and she fired right up. Prior to that, it would do what your describibg. Good luck.

 

[barry county]

Does your D have primer cups in the petcocks? My 28 D does and it REALLY likes fuel to start. You might not be getting enough fuel. I have a 20 pop bottle with 3/16" hole drilled in cap. I use it to squirt a abundant amount of gas into the primer cups. Seems to start better that way. One last question. Is the flywheel kicking back when it backfires thru the carb? If so then timing needs retarded. Good luck!

 

[txasylum]

Yes, the petcocks have a bowl shape to them, but I have not put any fuel in them. How much do you add?

It was kicking back a bit, but I've adjusted the timing. It doesn't seem to kick back at all, but it really is not firing completely. I finally get it spinning enough to get fuel in the cylinders to the point it blows out of the petcock, but it won't keep going. It only seems to be attempting to fire. Tonight it seems to want to fire on number 1. Yesterday number 2 was the one wanting to fire.

(quoted from post at 18:24:15 03/07/13) Does your D have primer cups in the petcocks? My 28 D does and it REALLY likes fuel to start. You might not be getting enough fuel. I have a 20 pop bottle with 3/16" hole drilled in cap. I use it to squirt a abundant amount of gas into the primer cups. Seems to start better that way. One last question. Is the flywheel kicking back when it backfires thru the carb? If so then timing needs retarded. Good luck!

 

[Anonymous-0]

I found by useing hard core wire works well, hotter blue spark on the old Ds

 

[WeirdDeere]

I think you've mentioned you have a Wico C magneto on the tractor....and a DLTX3 carb?

We've got a 1928 D and a 1938 DI and I've spent lots of time cranking both....especially the '28.

The first thing I'd suggest is just giving it a pull start (not slamming it in gear, but a good snap of the clutch is required). If you want suggestions on that let me know. Once you can get it running....you know it WILL run, and you can fine tune the mixture, etc to get it running right and easier to hand start.

It sounds like you have the timing close enough, at least it's not kicking back, correct? Did you use WIRE core plug wires, and do you have a nice bright blue spark on both plugs?Gapped properly, at .030 if I remember correctly.

If you've tried starting multiple times with no luck starting, I do suggest taking the plugs out and drying them with a propane torch, or just replacing them. When desperate, I've put them in while still hot from the torch and it DID help it fire up.

Do you have a way to hold the choke closed? Our '28 always had a baling wire for that reason, at least until the carb was rebuilt. We always had to use the priming cups liberally until the carb rebuild too (it was actually worn out internally).

I do suspect you may be trying too hard too. It's more of a finesse thing then brute force.


Anyway, my usual procedure:

Tractor in neutral, clutch back

Open petcocks

Turn on fuel

Close choke

Slowly rotate engine towards TDC (either side), stopping as necessary haha

When it gets close to TDC, keep up the rotation and sort of "flick" it over center as the mag clicks.

Continue the slow rotation and flicking action til it fires... (I won't tell you how many haha)

Open the choke immediately...even if it doesn't keep running (usually doesn't)

And keep up the slow rotation and flicking until it fires and runs (usually a time or two over TDC)

And close petcocks of course haha

------------------

If it doesn't fire yet, you're up to guesswork. Ds do LOVE fuel when starting, so choking is a good idea. Flooded Ds are even worse though.

It takes some time and lots of perspiration to figure it out sometimes.

 

[txasylum]

Thanks for your advice. I am using new, but nothing fancy on the spark wires. I will try heating the plugs. My dad and brother in law are coming down this afternoon. We are going to pull start it to see if it will run. What do you mean by snapping the clutch while pulling?

(quoted from post at 02:52:38 03/08/13) I think you've mentioned you have a Wico C magneto on the tractor....and a DLTX3 carb?

We've got a 1928 D and a 1938 DI and I've spent lots of time cranking both....especially the '28.

The first thing I'd suggest is just giving it a pull start (not slamming it in gear, but a good snap of the clutch is required). If you want suggestions on that let me know. Once you can get it running....you know it WILL run, and you can fine tune the mixture, etc to get it running right and easier to hand start.

It sounds like you have the timing close enough, at least it's not kicking back, correct? Did you use WIRE core plug wires, and do you have a nice bright blue spark on both plugs?Gapped properly, at .030 if I remember correctly.

If you've tried starting multiple times with no luck starting, I do suggest taking the plugs out and drying them with a propane torch, or just replacing them. When desperate, I've put them in while still hot from the torch and it DID help it fire up.

Do you have a way to hold the choke closed? Our '28 always had a baling wire for that reason, at least until the carb was rebuilt. We always had to use the priming cups liberally until the carb rebuild too (it was actually worn out internally).

I do suspect you may be trying too hard too. It's more of a finesse thing then brute force.


Anyway, my usual procedure:

Tractor in neutral, clutch back

Open petcocks

Turn on fuel

Close choke

Slowly rotate engine towards TDC (either side), stopping as necessary haha

When it gets close to TDC, keep up the rotation and sort of "flick" it over center as the mag clicks.

Continue the slow rotation and flicking action til it fires... (I won't tell you how many haha)

Open the choke immediately...even if it doesn't keep running (usually doesn't)

And keep up the slow rotation and flicking until it fires and runs (usually a time or two over TDC)

And close petcocks of course haha

------------------

If it doesn't fire yet, you're up to guesswork. Ds do LOVE fuel when starting, so choking is a good idea. Flooded Ds are even worse though.

It takes some time and lots of perspiration to figure it out sometimes.

 

[WeirdDeere]

I forgot something from my hand start procedure...have the throttle open about an inch or so off of idle.

The D has so much compression that it can even be a bear to pull start on loose or slippery ground.

Always make sure your clutch works correctly, as well as your brakes and pulley brake (if that's all you have!) before you attempt to pull start so you don't accidentally run someone over or hit something!

From a stop, with the chain hooked up, I always start with the tractor in high gear, with the clutch back (but not dragging on the pulley brake hard). Fuel on. Petcocks open. Throttle open partially an inch or so.

Slowly pull the tractor up to speed...walking speed or so.

To get the engine spinning, push the clutch forward...you can try it slowly and ease it in, sometimes it works, but most times I have to give it a pretty quick snap forward to keep from skidding the wheels.

This will get the engine rolling over and it might even take off.

It might help to have a long wire from the choke lever back to the tractor seat, so you can choke it as you pull. Even try adjusting the throttle back and forth. If it starts looking or smelling flooded give it full throttle with no choke to clear out the cylinders.

These old Ds are more of an art then science sometimes...that's why I like 'em. At least when they're tuned right! haha

Oh, most if not all auto supply places will sell you carbon core spark plug wires unless you ASK for wire core... it's not really special or more expensive I don't think, just carbon wire is the new standard to avoid radio interference. Everyone I've talked to says you need wire core for magnetos, the carbon core is just too much resistance for a good healthy spark.

Brandon

 

[WeirdDeere]

On the priming cups during hand starting...

IF your carb is in really good shape, you might not need them. After our carb rebuild, we were able to stop using them and use only the choke.

But using them won't really hurt and might really help.

Basically take a squirt can or oil type can and fill the primer cup full of gas when each cylinder is not on compression. When it's on intake it will literally suck the gas in. And on compression it will blow SOME back out but most stays in haha. Usually fill them at least once or twice per cylinder. If it's a long period of hand cranking, could be lots.

One other thing, is the gas you're using fresh? Hand starts can be finicky about old and bad gas.

Brandon

 

[txasylum]

Update!

We pulled the tractor and finally got it running, but it sure did take a lot to get it going. Once running, it was running really bad. Even with the carb pumping gas into the carb (gas leaking out of carb) we had to run the choke at half closed to run. Finally able to get it to run without the choke on, but the idle screw had to be turned out about 5 turns, which is too much. It was backfiring occasionally shooting flames out of the exhaust. I assume it is a carb problem, so I took the carb off and it is currently sitting in a gallon of carb cleaner.

What do you think?

Bob

 

[WeirdDeere]

Definitely sounds like carb issues at the least. Two things that pop in my head....

#1. The needle and seat aren't shutting off fuel flow. Our DLTX3 was very bad about this. First, I'd take apart the carb and check the float. Is it set at the right height? If you have a cork float, well, see if it floats. If it has any age at all it might not be floating at the right height. I would honestly really think about replacing it with a brass float. If you have a brass float, shake and listen for any liquid in it. Or put in a bucket of water and look for bubbles of air escaping.

Check the condition of the needle and seat as well. On the DLTX3 both are metal, which tends to not seal as well as the new viton tipped needles. See that both are at least smooth. Maybe even play a little with liquid and see if it seals when closed.

Many people might cringe at this, but we often had trouble with the needle not seating on ours when trying to get it running, and often a few soft taps with a handy wrench on the side of the carb would shake it enough to seal. A small soft hammer would work. I don't really recommend this as a method to fix a regular problem, but it might help for a short term.

Ended up getting the carb rebuilt, and it was worth every penny. The brass body was so worn I couldn't rebuild it myself like I can the cast iron later carbs. At first, the needle and seat still didn't seal, he'd even warned it would take a little bit of time to wear in. But we both finally figured out that there was just enough debris and crap coming from the tank that it wouldn't let it seal...this could ALSO be your problem, we added an inline filter to the fuel line, looks crappy, but now it seals up great.

#2 Having to have the choke closed or mixture really rich makes me think you might have a plugged passage in the carb. Have you had the nozzle out of the carb...it should literally fall out when you remove the bowl nut and spring. Cleaning the other small passages in the carb is also absolutely necessary, sitting in carb cleaner, unfortunately, won't even touch them. That is also a lot to go into, I could describe if necessary (I'm being too windy already), I think it's in the board archives too.

If you're considering getting it rebuild, I'm very happy with the guy that did mine! There is also the option of replacing with a later D carb. Just be careful, as the throttle works in opposite directions, and you'd need to modify the carb throttle arm. Otherwise it would sound like a dragster at top RPM....at least until the pieces start flying!

On the back firing bit, it could be the carb...or timing, which you seem to have covered, I was wondering if you've checked and adjusted the valves?

Enough of a book for now!
Brandon