Alternator Conversion Issues

[sweetskillsrk]

Hey everyone, I need some help with my alternator conversion on my '67 3000 gasser. Over the winter I upgraded my battery cables to 2/0, added in a master switch, and installed a group 31 battery. While I had it down, I figured I would upgrade to an alternator as well. Last fall, I reinstalled both headlights and one rear light (they were not working or missing when I bought the tractor). I also added in a horn because it had one originally and I had one sitting around. The tractor ran fine for a few months, but the generator didn't have enough output to handle the lights and the ignition system. When I cut the lights on, the tractor would start to die. After some trial and error, I realized at high RPMs, I could cut the lights on one by one. Because of that, I decided to go the alternator route after I upgraded my battery cables. I got the conversion kit Yesterday's Tractor offers and followed the instructions to the letter. I prefer to only do a job once so I used heat shrink on the splices, dielectric grease on all the connections, and put wire loom on all the harnesses so all the wiring is sealed and protected.

Anyway, after I completed the conversion, when I turn the key to the first position, the starter immediately comes to life and starts the tractor. I have verified I have the right wires on the right terminals on the key switch, tried a different key switch, and after hours of troubleshooting on and off for the last few months, I'm still in the same position. I am very busy at work so I get very little time to work on the tractor so it's been sitting since the beginning of March. Can anyone help point me in the right direction? I've read all the posts I can find on here about alternator conversions, but haven't been able to find a post about my exact issue. I'm decent with wiring and schematics, but the troubleshooting is the area I lack the most experience and knowledge. I have read about a diode to keep the alternator from back feeding to the start relay? I have looked, but I don't see an inline one like some have described. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Bern]

I really don't think your starting issues have anything to do with your new alternator, rather I think it's just a coincidence that the trouble happened at the same time as your alternator installation. If you look at the factory wiring diagram, the starting circuit and charging circuit are completely independent from each other. It sure sounds to me like you have the key switch incorrectly wired - maybe you're misreading the diagram.

What I would suggest is pulling the key switch back out and bench testing it. Use an ohmmeter to establish continuity between the battery feed terminal and the other terminals with regards to the various key switch positions. Of course, you are particularly interested in the terminal that feeds the starter relay. Once you have located the start terminal, double check to make sure that this was attached to the wire that goes down to the neutral safety switch. If it disappears into the harness and/or the colors are faded, you can continuity check down at the transmission cover as well.

 

[Jim.ME]

Hey everyone, I need some help with my alternator conversion on my '67 3000 gasser. Over the winter I upgraded my battery cables to 2/0, added in a master switch, and installed a group 31 battery. While I had it down, I figured I would upgrade to an alternator as well. Last fall, I reinstalled both headlights and one rear light (they were not working or missing when I bought the tractor). I also added in a horn because it had one originally and I had one sitting around. The tractor ran fine for a few months, but the generator didn't have enough output to handle the lights and the ignition system. When I cut the lights on, the tractor would start to die. After some trial and error, I realized at high RPMs, I could cut the lights on one by one. Because of that, I decided to go the alternator route after I upgraded my battery cables. I got the conversion kit Yesterday's Tractor offers and followed the instructions to the letter. I prefer to only do a job once so I used heat shrink on the splices, dielectric grease on all the connections, and put wire loom on all the harnesses so all the wiring is sealed and protected.

Anyway, after I completed the conversion, when I turn the key to the first position, the starter immediately comes to life and starts the tractor. I have verified I have the right wires on the right terminals on the key switch, tried a different key switch, and after hours of troubleshooting on and off for the last few months, I'm still in the same position. I am very busy at work so I get very little time to work on the tractor so it's been sitting since the beginning of March. Can anyone help point me in the right direction? I've read all the posts I can find on here about alternator conversions, but haven't been able to find a post about my exact issue. I'm decent with wiring and schematics, but the troubleshooting is the area I lack the most experience and knowledge. I have read about a diode to keep the alternator from back feeding to the start relay? I have looked, but I don't see an inline one like some have described. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

Did the kit have a one-wire alternator or a three-wire alternator? A diode is not needed with a one wire alternator, and it should have been included in the kit if you got a three-wire alternator. If you have a charge indicator light that should serve the same purpose as the diode to stop back feed from the excitation wire of a three-wire alternator.

I agree with Bern, it sounds like something is not wired correctly, not the fault of the alternator.

 

[sotxbill]

Did the kit have a one-wire alternator or a three-wire alternator? A diode is not needed with a one wire alternator, and it should have been included in the kit if you got a three-wire alternator. If you have a charge indicator light that should serve the same purpose as the diode to stop back feed from the excitation wire of a three-wire alternator.

I agree with Bern, it sounds like something is not wired correctly, not the fault of the alternator.

Diode is reversed or wire moved on ig sw.

 

[Btzj02]

Check the attached thread. JMOR attached a diagram that may help solve your problem.

2600 gas engine. Can't turn it off

My 1978 Ford 2600 wouldn't turn over. I was just getting a rapid click click click from my solenoid. I replaced the solenoid and whallah, I'm off and running. BUT... When I went to shut it down, the switch would not turn the tractor off. The key will start the motor but will not shut it off...

forums.yesterdaystractors.com

 

[Jim.ME]

Diode is reversed or wire moved on ig sw.

Diode reversed? From what he posted he does not have a diode. He did not say if it is a one-wire alternator which does not need a diode, indicator light or resistor as a three-wire alternator does. (I am guessing from looking at the description in YT parts that their kit has a one-wire alternator, maybe he will tell us.)

Right now, based on the given info, something wired wrong is most likely.

 

[sotxbill]

Diode reversed? From what he posted he does not have a diode. He did not say if it is a one-wire alternator which does not need a diode, indicator light or resistor as a three-wire alternator does. (I am guessing from looking at the description in YT parts that their kit has a one-wire alternator, maybe he will tell us.)

Right now, based on the given info, something wired wrong is most likely.

The alternator kits for the 3000 that I have installed show how to make the idiot light work, via a diode or light bulb... I always make the light work over the diode. ASSUMING he bought a alternator kit for a ford 3000, which would also support the tach drive. These kits also have the crimp connectors to bypass the regulator battery feed/tractor feed. But I am wondering now... if he reversed the two small connectors on the starter solenoid? or a wire on the ignition switch as said earlier. Reversing the small wires would energize the solenoid as soon as the ignition feed comes alive, thus cranking and starting... as he describes. Normally you do not remove the two small wires on an alternator conversion but could do the light hook up that probably/might got him in trouble??

 

[sweetskillsrk]

Thanks for all the replies.

Sorry I didn't include it originally, but it is a one wire alternator. As far as the ignition switch, I took a picture of the back of it before I disconnected it, just to make 100% sure I got it right on reinstallation. I hooked the ignition switch back up as it was originally and after the issues, I did spend some time ohm-ing it out, though it's been a few months so I'll need to do it again. I also swapped the ignition wire and the solenoid wire on the switch with the same result.

The wire from the starter relay to the ignition coil was old and looked like it needed replacing so I also did that, again verifying I hooked it back up properly. Thinking I accidentally swapped wires on the ignition coil I swapped the wire from one terminal to the other on the ignition coil...same result. I've tried a few things and they all result in the first position in the ignition switch energizing the starter immediately. As with most tractors, the wiring is a bit of a mess and I'm doing my best to get it back to factory, it's just so hard to tell what's right and what's wrong.

I will do some continuity testing, verify wiring the best I can with the wiring schematic in my book, and follow back up with my results. Thanks again.

 

[Jim.ME]

Thanks for all the replies.

Sorry I didn't include it originally, but it is a one wire alternator. As far as the ignition switch, I took a picture of the back of it before I disconnected it, just to make 100% sure I got it right on reinstallation. I hooked the ignition switch back up as it was originally and after the issues, I did spend some time ohm-ing it out, though it's been a few months so I'll need to do it again. I also swapped the ignition wire and the solenoid wire on the switch with the same result.

The wire from the starter relay to the ignition coil was old and looked like it needed replacing so I also did that, again verifying I hooked it back up properly. Thinking I accidentally swapped wires on the ignition coil I swapped the wire from one terminal to the other on the ignition coil...same result. I've tried a few things and they all result in the first position in the ignition switch energizing the starter immediately. As with most tractors, the wiring is a bit of a mess and I'm doing my best to get it back to factory, it's just so hard to tell what's right and what's wrong.

I will do some continuity testing, verify wiring the best I can with the wiring schematic in my book, and follow back up with my results. Thanks again.

No diode required for a one wire alternator.

You are using the old ignition switch that worked ok before you replaced the harness, is that correct? I would start by checking continuity (ohm) between the terminals on the switch with all the wires unhooked.

Swapping the wires on the coil from one terminal to the other should have no effect on your starting system.

Is this a starter mounted solenoid or a stand-alone one? Do you have 3 or 4 terminals on the solenoid? Unhook the wire you have between the starter solenoid and coil and see what happens. If it has 4 terminals with a wire from the coil on one small terminal and one from the start terminal of the switch on the other small terminal, if those two wires were on the wrong terminals, it would act like you describe.

 

[sotxbill]

On the coil... in the negative side, the wire should run to the distribitor.
On the 3000 there are two wires that run to the positive side and that is where things go wrong... One wire comes from the ignition switch to the positive side of the coil through a resistor wire... The second wire.... came from the starter solenoid ..BUT came from the little I terminal, not the S terminal I think this is where you reversed the two small wires on the starter solenoid. Remember the picture shows the solenoid faced to me instead of facing the engine. The wire from the ignition switch goes to the S terminal.... See in the second picture where when the washer is pulled up, it supply power to both big posts but also supply power to the I post so the coil is powered around the resistor wire.

 

[sweetskillsrk]

Well, I'm an idiot. Since I've had the tractor, the starter solenoid has been in the right spot but on the outside of the tractor. To avoid getting something hung in the wiring and damaging anything, I tucked it back up underneath the fuel tank how it should be during my conversion project. Well, when I reattached the wiring, I failed to account for the ignition and starter poles switching sides. I did in fact put all the wiring in the same position, but that's also where I went wrong in this case. Y'all were on the money. My apologies for wasting your time gentlemen. I appreciate each of you taking the time to help. The battery is a little weak from sitting so long so I'll charge it up and hopefully be back to work next weekend. Thanks again.

 

[sotxbill]

Glad you got it... Now,, do you want to run a wire to make the generator idiot light work? Most likely the alternator supports that.

 

[sweetskillsrk]

The alternator came with the tech drive and the extra wire for the light and it does work. I need to make sure the alternator charges properly once I can fire her up, but other than that I'm all set. I've got some 4 gauge wire, any advantage to replacing the smaller factory wiring with a larger cable going from the alternator to the battery?

 

[Keith Williams]

The alternator came with the tech drive and the extra wire for the light and it does work. I need to make sure the alternator charges properly once I can fire her up, but other than that I'm all set. I've got some 4 gauge wire, any advantage to replacing the smaller factory wiring with a larger cable going from the alternator to the battery?

4 ga is bigger than normal. I used 10 ga on mine. The Alt could put out 63 amps at max. I just don't envision it ever being maxed out.
YMMV

 

[sotxbill]

The alternator came with the tech drive and the extra wire for the light and it does work. I need to make sure the alternator charges properly once I can fire her up, but other than that I'm all set. I've got some 4 gauge wire, any advantage to replacing the smaller factory wiring with a larger cable going from the alternator to the battery?

The gen only charged at 22 amps max at higher rpms... The alt kit probably has the 37 amp alternator iirc,, but it could be a 67 amp as thats the more common "lowest amp" replacement alt from most manufactures.. And in the kit, you splice the three heavy wires together at the voltage regulator. One of those comes from the generator (alternator) output, one goes to the battery via the post on the starter solenoid, and one goes to power terminal at the ignition switch. Those factory wires will work as long as you keep the lights and loads down a bit... ie the tractor was designed for two headlights, a work light, dash lights, tail light, and still charge. If for any reason you start to add more load, then yes, I would run the alternator output directly to the battery post on the starter solenoid. and either tape up the big factory wire at the back of the alternator for future restoration as well.( and you could remove the other end of this wire from the 3 way splice you did on the installation if you wish) This alone means the "battery charge" part is completely removed from the factory wires, and now the wire to the ignition only carries the lights, thermostart if equipped, and ignition... I have seen folks put some pretty big light bars on tractors and need to do this bypass where others keep the factory 2.5 amp headlights, work light only. On the x600 and x610, I do just run an new heavy wire from the 10si to the starter solenoid and tape up the old wires as they are .... 67 amp alternators and in some cases cabs and a/c and lots of headlights and work lights.

 

[sweetskillsrk]

I'm back in business! Thank you all again for your help and information! Upon startup, the alternator immediately began charging and I can cut my lights on without having to worry about drawing too many amps from the ignition system.

I did charge the battery, but that wasn't my problem. Turns out the engine was in just the right position that the starter bendix was just hitting the flywheel. After I charged the battery and the starter still wouldn't turn the engine over, I figured this out and rotated the engine about 5 degrees and she fired right up. I cut my jungle of grass today and got some of my implements reorganized. So nice to have it back!