an interesting project

[wi50]

In an effort to run over my own crankshaft some night, here are some pictures of an Allis Chalmers 4" tall head from a 226 engine that I have re worked. You can see in the photo the yellow outline, that is where the original port was. I raised it and angled it down twards the valve. In another picture you can see a Snap On wrench passed through the intake port, through the valve and into the cylinder. You never know when you may need to get a 1 1/16 wrench in your engine.

I don't know how the pictures will turn out, I am not a photographer. The head is getting close to done and I took and cut the ports a bit to test again. I've done a lot of testing, cutting, and more testing trying to hone in on what is going to give me hopefully optimum results. SO far it's pulled some pretty good tests for flow and uniform velocities. It really sounds healthy on the bench also, not rough like a lot of heads. The exhaust still needs some work and the intake is able to suppoort more valve yet. There isn't enough material left to hold intake guides, so I'm in the process of makeing a plate that bolts on top of the head that has the guide bosses and spring pockets machined into it. I had cut things apart in the mill, fabricated metal to fit in the water jacket and then started filling. I made a sleve in the face of the head so I have a solid refrence point to blend into and installed it after I had done some of the testing to figure out where I wanted it.

I go see a fella now and then that's got 35 years doing this type of thing for some major companies, race teams, aftermarket manufacture companies, etc. I'm lucky that he will share a little of his experiences and knowledge. and keep me pointed in the right direction.

This isn't any good for an engine that is governed or someone pulling in a 4 mph class, but it's intentions are for a high RPM engine, a new engine I've been working on. It probably isn't going to make any power below 3000 RPM, but I hope when the big Holley opens up, the shortblock stays intact. It's gong to take some time to get the whole project togather.

I've also got some pictures of my old Leroi head worked over, and some of a new solid 8 port penthouse port head that a few of us have been messing around on that I'll try and get up sometime soon.

 

[wi50]

the pics didn't turn out quite so well I guess. Maybe my poor photography skills or just a palin cheap old camera.

I wish it would have shown up better but the port side and the bottom are a nice sweeping arc heading to the valve bowl. There is a divider in the port to help split the charge and keep the volume reasonably close. I've done a lot of testing and probeing around with flowballs and ptiot tubes checking. Try some clay here and there to fill it, or cut something out and test again. I'm close to the finished product, but not done. Probably never done.

With the valve guide plate, I am able to offset the valves to allow slightly better allignment and positioning which allows me to run an adequate valve. I had welded part of the spark plug pockets and re ground them, then we cut the new valve seat into the area.

 

[Agco Avenger]

Outstanding work! Very interesting to me. There was a guy around here in OH that built a few Minnie engines a few years ago that did some similar port work. He called it "tubing" a head. He bored the port out, then pressed in a large oversize copper tube back to the bowls to make a new port. The heads held water after he was done. He was pretty closed-mouthed about his work and he only built a few engines, but they ran really well. His name was "Bechtel" if I remember correctly. Can"t wait to see your 5 main counterweighted crank.

Avenger.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Always good to see someone "outside the box"......

 

[wi50]

well thank you fella's,
it's alright to be fairley quiet about some projects like your MM fella is. He worked hard and he can chose what he wants to share. I know of other tubed heads out there, but not many wish to share a lot. I'll share some things, but not everything, I'll try to take some pictures and share, but they may be crappy pictures, and that's just fine. I don't need to show everything.

Sometimes a fella does what makes sense and puts a lot of time in something and there are verry little gains to show for it. Sometimes one does something fairley small or insignificant and the gains are huge. Testing and expermenting is the only way to know what works and what doesn't. Even when test results are accurate, math and physics say it should work, it may not. Parts really don't care what we think.


Cut a little more of a vane or fillet here or there, put a lump or hump here or there. Test it and see. Just don't claim that what you have never seen doesn't work or that someone is lying. I've worked hard to build a good business and a good reputation, and I don't need anyone telling me what they don't know.

I'm going to put up some pictures of another head. It's a 3" tall Leroi. The pictures aren't real good but one can get a general idea of what was done. I took yellow and blue paint markers and circled the areas where I cut to gain access to the vlave bowl and port, and in another picture and drew roughly the original and new port locations and shapes to high lite where the new one is on an original and un modified head. In one of the pictures you can see a wrench pased in through the intake and into the valve bowl. In another you can see the the shape of the port somewhat where it comes into the head and transitions into the valve bowl. There is a wedge built inside the port to direct the charge to one valve or the other and to keep the port volume and velocity as consistant as possiable. Nothing can be built perfect, but we can try to make comprimises and make it as good as we can in the space we are allowed.

Those are probably the only pictures I'll share. Nothing to revealing, but enough to show what has been done.

 

[Little Big B]

Hello, this is Derek Holdren. Give me a call sometime .605-929-2797. I've been in the process of doing some very similair testing on a few different JD heads with intentions of doing the same things you are, only at little less rpm.
Have a good one.
Derek

 

[Agco Avenger]

Really good stuff to see! I tried to do some similar port modifications to a JD "B" a few years ago. I was trying to get enough air in & out of the engine to compete in 10 mph 3500 & 4000 open classes. I finally decided that an old B was just too far behind in the start and I didn't have enough skill & experience at that time to make it work well. Maybe someday in the future......

Avenger

 

[Anonymous-0]

nothing new to the 5 main counterweight crank 4 cylinder crankshaft. its been outhere a long time .Superflow determined a long time ago that the maximum ideal value for head flow ratio is 146 cfm/sq.in.This number is for an perfect frictionless orifice with no dump or expansion losses bsaically 133cfm/sq.in. is needed for the most power to be produced from a engine with a single intake valve. Dont give up yet untill it will swallow a 1 3/8 inch wrench . Keep working it will get there.

 

[Anonymous-0]

(quoted from post at 11:21:04 04/11/11)

In an effort to run over my own crankshaft some night, here are some pictures of an Allis Chalmers 4" tall head from a 226 engine that I have re worked. You can see in the photo the yellow outline, that is where the original port was. I raised it and angled it down twards the valve. In another picture you can see a Snap On wrench passed through the intake port, through the valve and into the cylinder. You never know when you may need to get a 1 1/16 wrench in your engine.

I don't know how the pictures will turn out, I am not a photographer. The head is getting close to done and I took and cut the ports a bit to test again. I've done a lot of testing, cutting, and more testing trying to hone in on what is going to give me hopefully optimum results. SO far it's pulled some pretty good tests for flow and uniform velocities. It really sounds healthy on the bench also, not rough like a lot of heads. The exhaust still needs some work and the intake is able to suppoort more valve yet. There isn't enough material left to hold intake guides, so I'm in the process of makeing a plate that bolts on top of the head that has the guide bosses and spring pockets machined into it. I had cut things apart in the mill, fabricated metal to fit in the water jacket and then started filling. I made a sleve in the face of the head so I have a solid refrence point to blend into and installed it after I had done some of the testing to figure out where I wanted it.

I go see a fella now and then that's got 35 years doing this type of thing for some major companies, race teams, aftermarket manufacture companies, etc. I'm lucky that he will share a little of his experiences and knowledge. and keep me pointed in the right direction.

This isn't any good for an engine that is governed or someone pulling in a 4 mph class, but it's intentions are for a high RPM engine, a new engine I've been working on. It probably isn't going to make any power below 3000 RPM, but I hope when the big Holley opens up, the shortblock stays intact. It's gong to take some time to get the whole project togather.

I've also got some pictures of my old Leroi head worked over, and some of a new solid 8 port penthouse port head that a few of us have been messing around on that I'll try and get up sometime soon.

id you flow the head with or without a sparkplug? Still trying to figure out this rare earth defying physics or if the little tricks used to sell a person who isnt in the know was used. You know what they say seeing a number on the flow bench is believing for most unexpected uneducatedsuckers.

 

[wi50]

I can't really show much more, pictures of my hand are enough to turn some people on. I'd hate to see what pictures of my blue eyes could do.

 

[Anonymous-0]

(quoted from post at 20:23:51 04/15/11)
I can't really show much more, pictures of my hand are enough to turn some people on. I'd hate to see what pictures of my blue eyes could do.

bsoultely nothing but now a date who springs for a bottle of Massandra Sherry 1775 .

 

[wi50]

I'm going to post some information, take it for what it is worth but I'll also cite where it was taken from so you fella's can go look, make sure that I'm not lying and you can check for yourselves.

A Trick Flow Gen X 220 head head for a GM LS1 engine, part number tfs-3060t001 listed on Trick Flow's website has an intake valve of 2.04 inches.

if you click on the part, there is a link to the flow chart, the chart states that at 28" water pressure

.100 lift = 67 cfm
.200 lift = 133
.300 lift = 211 cfm
.400 lift = 261 cfm
.500 lift = 292 cfm
.600 lift = 305 cfm

Our old tractor heads were not designed with performance in mind, they were designed to do an intended job and likely re-designed to be easy to make or cast with the tooling that the foundry had at the time. We can't get near as efficient of a port as what some of these automotive heads have to offer, they were designed with better technology and were designed to do a different job.

I certainly can't match this kind of performance in an old tractor casting, but I can work hard and try to do the best that I can within the limetations that we are given. I've got some pretty good numbers, I worked hard to get them, and I worked a long time trying to find what worked and what didn't. But my numbers in no way defy any laws of physics, no matter how hard I work, I just can't match what a head that was designed better from the start can do. A lot of these automotive heads are fine pieces, we can only try to refine our old junk in comparison.

I'm certain that Trick Flows information is accurate. I'm simply useing this head as an example because the information is easy for all to access, and I do have a valve size close to this head example, though I'm about 50 cfm short at my peak of doing what it can,which is pretty good for some old re worked junk and some dumb farm kids scratching heads allong with a little help from a man that designes pieces similar to this example head for a liveing. There's many, many others that could serve as examples.

I see some of you like the work done, like the pictures and have similar experiences to share. It's wonderfull to share ideas and information and learn from one another. I also see that some of you have issues, and I can't do anything for that other than offer the advice to get to work and learn something, or don't do anything. BUt don't nag and whine claiming that something is impossiable.

 

[Anonymous-0]

(quoted from post at 12:50:01 04/17/11) I'm going to post some information, take it for what it is worth but I'll also cite where it was taken from so you fella's can go look, make sure that I'm not lying and you can check for yourselves.

A Trick Flow Gen X 220 head head for a GM LS1 engine, part number tfs-3060t001 listed on Trick Flow's website has an intake valve of 2.04 inches.

if you click on the part, there is a link to the flow chart, the chart states that at 28" water pressure

.100 lift = 67 cfm
.200 lift = 133
.300 lift = 211 cfm
.400 lift = 261 cfm
.500 lift = 292 cfm
.600 lift = 305 cfm

Our old tractor heads were not designed with performance in mind, they were designed to do an intended job and likely re-designed to be easy to make or cast with the tooling that the foundry had at the time. We can't get near as efficient of a port as what some of these automotive heads have to offer, they were designed with better technology and were designed to do a different job.

I certainly can't match this kind of performance in an old tractor casting, but I can work hard and try to do the best that I can within the limetations that we are given. I've got some pretty good numbers, I worked hard to get them, and I worked a long time trying to find what worked and what didn't. But my numbers in no way defy any laws of physics, no matter how hard I work, I just can't match what a head that was designed better from the start can do. A lot of these automotive heads are fine pieces, we can only try to refine our old junk in comparison.

I'm certain that Trick Flows information is accurate. I'm simply useing this head as an example because the information is easy for all to access, and I do have a valve size close to this head example, though I'm about 50 cfm short at my peak of doing what it can,which is pretty good for some old re worked junk and some dumb farm kids scratching heads allong with a little help from a man that designes pieces similar to this example head for a liveing. There's many, many others that could serve as examples.

I see some of you like the work done, like the pictures and have similar experiences to share. It's wonderfull to share ideas and information and learn from one another. I also see that some of you have issues, and I can't do anything for that other than offer the advice to get to work and learn something, or don't do anything. BUt don't nag and whine claiming that something is impossiable.

The ls1 head has a large cross sectional area (csa) to support those flow numbers you however do not.

 

[wi50]

you do not know what the cross sectional area of my cylinder head is now do you? So how in the world can you make those assumptions?

 

[Anonymous-0]

(quoted from post at 14:27:43 04/17/11)
you do not know what the cross sectional area of my cylinder head is now do you? So how in the world can you make those assumptions?

The fact that you only stuck a 1 1/16 wrench in the port is a good indicator. A ls1 head has a 3.4 csa on the short side. If you remember I told you that in order to have the numbers you were boasting you would need a 3.14 csa which is a 2inch diameter hole. I have a pair of sb chevy 492 heads here in the shop that flow from a 2.5 csa with a 2.02 valve .100 69cfm, .200 130cfm ,.300 173cfm .400 198cfm .500 206cfm, 600 209 cfm,700 209 cfm. fully ported .700 will increase to 246 cfm and that all they will do the ls1 head with the 3.4 csa on the short side as you posted does alot better. stick a 1 3/8 inch wrench in that alllis intake runner and you want be in some rare earth defying physics.

 

[wi50]

You really don't have an idea then. You're simply trying to take a little information and turn it into a crap shoot like alwayse.

Glad I don't need to waste any more time trying to explain. Others understand just fine.

and the Pankey saga continues.........

 

[Anonymous-0]

(quoted from post at 16:51:56 04/17/11)
You really don't have an idea then. You're simply trying to take a little information and turn it into a crap shoot like alwayse.

Glad I don't need to waste any more time trying to explain. Others understand just fine.

and the Pankey saga continues.........

nope you keep posting it just proves what i say . I remember a fellow who had a home built flow bench and built a header to aid scavenging then when I posted actual numbers on exhaust he began to rethink things and how much torque can be lost by improving the exhaust .Now I post actual numbers where he leaves them out and pop goes the number or some frevelous reply untill he has time to refer to the head guy he mentions possibly. Two wrenches observed in the pictures 1 1/16 and a 3/4. If you want to have the largest flow numbers to boast about thats fine just be smart enough to post images to support it. Other wise its just fishing tales grow larger each time told.

 

[Deer-Slayer]

Very nice work. I have also done some of the same work you are doing. I live in WI too. You should get ahold of me some time. I am somone who loves seeing a machinists work like this. Keep up the good work. I do all my work undercover. Motor looks completely stock on the out side... and no body knows whats going on inside
you will need custom exhaust manifold and intake for that head to. i couldnt get away with that around were i pull.
but very nice work.

 

[wi50]

deere slayer,
I run a headered exhaust and intake, there's a lot to manifold design, not that mine is right, but at least it's less wrong than most. I had some pictures up a while agoe. The manifolds are just as much if not more work than the heads. But just as much fun. We don't have any RPM limets, so we can really take advantage of the custom parts.

I just looked at a map,
I'm quite a ways from you, to the north. But I may get that way sometime. A couple friends run some light and havey superstocks and I get the chance to do a little work and travel allong. Years agoe there was a fella from Holman that had a pretty good running Allis I'd pulled against a time or two.

 

[wi50]

I'll bring this thread back to the top in an effort for Pankey to actually READ it and possiably understand something. He doesen'd know what he's trying to argue about.