Okay, i cannot think here...this will probably sound like a really stupid question. rebuilt the motor on an angle mount distributor style 8N. Crank it over and it wont take off. Put a tad bit of gas in the #4 spark plug hole, and it pops through the tailpipe a few times. Then put a tad bit of gas in #2 and #3 spark plug holes and it pops through the carburetor a few times. The distributor is timed to the 4degrees as stated in FO4. What are my options as far as what ive done wrong here? any help is greatly appreciated.
Greg 2N (TX)
Member
Wow,
Sorry to hear that, I hope your cam was not set incorrectly.
Greg
Sorry to hear that, I hope your cam was not set incorrectly.
Greg
After all that work, I'll bet you are bummed out. But relax and take things one at a time.
First. Check spark, pull a plug, put the plug wire back on, ground the plug and crank the engine, do you have a strong white/blue spark.
Second. Check for fuel, Turn off the gas at the valve. Pull the plug at the bottom of the carb and let the fuel drain out. Now open the valve, do you have a good flow of gas out the hole. (might need a friend for this)
Post back and let us know what you find. If both are OK, then I suspect timing or poor compression (the rings are not seated yet). But lets cross that bridge later.
I'm sure Bruce will post with his trouble shooting guide shortly.
Kurt-NEPA
First. Check spark, pull a plug, put the plug wire back on, ground the plug and crank the engine, do you have a strong white/blue spark.
Second. Check for fuel, Turn off the gas at the valve. Pull the plug at the bottom of the carb and let the fuel drain out. Now open the valve, do you have a good flow of gas out the hole. (might need a friend for this)
Post back and let us know what you find. If both are OK, then I suspect timing or poor compression (the rings are not seated yet). But lets cross that bridge later.
I'm sure Bruce will post with his trouble shooting guide shortly.
Kurt-NEPA
Ok, now its really got me baffled. Did the compression test. #1, #2,and #3 dont read on my tester. #4 reads rougly 25lbs. you can feel a slight blowing on your finger on the first 3, and it appreared to hiss pretty good for a few revolutions on #1, but the let off to barely a blow again. The machine shop did the valve job, new lifters and said they set them, and of course bored it out to .090 sleeves, etc. I built it from there. The cam gears arent slipping on the camshaft as it turns, and i took the valve covers off and the valves are moving. What can i be missing? thanks
Ok, now its really got me baffled. Did the compression test. #1, #2,and #3 dont read on my tester. #4 reads rougly 25lbs. you can feel a slight blowing on your finger on the first 3, and it appreared to hiss pretty good for a few revolutions on #1, but the let off to barely a blow again. The machine shop did the valve job, new lifters and said they set them, and of course bored it out to .090 sleeves, etc. I built it from there. The cam gears arent slipping on the camshaft as it turns, and i took the valve covers off and the valves are moving. What can i be missing? thanks
Greybeard - PA
Member
If you have no comnpression on three cylinders and only wind on one, please don't fool around checking spark and fuel - your problems are just a little more deep-seated than that. Don't know who did the rebuild, but you definitely have an internal problem.
The rule when doing engine diagnosis is to always do the easiest and simplest things first. I'd pull the timing cover and take a long look at the timing events. Check to see that the cam is timed properly with the crank and that the gear is on the cam stick properly.
This will not tale real long, unless you have the hood back on. If you do, pull it and the radiator - you may have to dig deeper, but I'm bettingdd someone just got the camshaft timed wrong with the crank.
Inspect and report back to us. Mebby we can offer more help.
Good Luck
Dave Erb
New Holland, PA
The rule when doing engine diagnosis is to always do the easiest and simplest things first. I'd pull the timing cover and take a long look at the timing events. Check to see that the cam is timed properly with the crank and that the gear is on the cam stick properly.
This will not tale real long, unless you have the hood back on. If you do, pull it and the radiator - you may have to dig deeper, but I'm bettingdd someone just got the camshaft timed wrong with the crank.
Inspect and report back to us. Mebby we can offer more help.
Good Luck
Dave Erb
New Holland, PA
Greg 2N (TX)
Member
You have the bolt-on type cam gear?
Greg
Greg
Greg 2N (TX)
Member
I have the front mount distributor slotted cam myself.
I made darned sure where my cam lobes were at the point of having the dots lined up between the crank gear and the cam gear before I removed the cam gear.
The crank gear is not a problem since it has the keyway.
You are going to need to find TDC on #1 cylinder and look at the #1 valves.
You will have to know turning clockwise on the crank from #1 TDC that the #1 exhaust valve starts opening, etc.
Greg
I made darned sure where my cam lobes were at the point of having the dots lined up between the crank gear and the cam gear before I removed the cam gear.
The crank gear is not a problem since it has the keyway.
You are going to need to find TDC on #1 cylinder and look at the #1 valves.
You will have to know turning clockwise on the crank from #1 TDC that the #1 exhaust valve starts opening, etc.
Greg
Greg 2N (TX)
Member
I'm sorry, didn't answer the part about the distributor drive gear.
That one is not a problem, even if you could put it on wrong.
Your side mount distributor gets set from the top side when you install the distributor shaft.
Are you at the point where you can take a look at the timing gear or is the engine still buttoned up?
I remember on my early 8N engine that when the dots were lined up on the meshed timing gears, all my pistons were at half travel between top and bottom of piston travel.
In other words, two pistons were going up and two pistons were going down and just passing each other at equal heights (at half travel).
I know I'm being wordy, just trying to give you all the ammo you can get.
I also remember my #1 exhaust cam lobe pointing straight down toward the oil pan with the timing gear marks lined up.
This means one full turn of the crank from the lined up timing marks, your #1 exhaust valve should be opening.
I hope this helps.
Greg
That one is not a problem, even if you could put it on wrong.
Your side mount distributor gets set from the top side when you install the distributor shaft.
Are you at the point where you can take a look at the timing gear or is the engine still buttoned up?
I remember on my early 8N engine that when the dots were lined up on the meshed timing gears, all my pistons were at half travel between top and bottom of piston travel.
In other words, two pistons were going up and two pistons were going down and just passing each other at equal heights (at half travel).
I know I'm being wordy, just trying to give you all the ammo you can get.
I also remember my #1 exhaust cam lobe pointing straight down toward the oil pan with the timing gear marks lined up.
This means one full turn of the crank from the lined up timing marks, your #1 exhaust valve should be opening.
I hope this helps.
Greg
Greg 2N (TX)
Member
Maybe someone else can jump in who has the side mount experience and help this guy out.
If he had his cam gear 180 degrees out could he do a work around by setting his distributor 180 degrees out and then do the late 8N timing adjustment from there?
I know that is quite a stretch but just wondering what others may think.
Greg
If he had his cam gear 180 degrees out could he do a work around by setting his distributor 180 degrees out and then do the late 8N timing adjustment from there?
I know that is quite a stretch but just wondering what others may think.
Greg
Ok, Well i have figured out the main problem i believe... I had the cam/gear out of time with the crank, wasnt thinkin obviously. Now my next dumb question is... Being as i cannot think today, am i correct in saying that if i set the cam where the intake valve closes RIGHT as the piston hits the bottom of the down stroke before the compression stroke, this is a good guide point? Seems to me the valves need to be COMPLETELY closed when it starts the compression stroke. am i on the right track? how bad will it mess me up if im off a tooth or two? Thanks again for any and all help.
Uh-Oh......you haffta remove yer crankshaft gear ('cuz it is eaziest) and then turn yer crankshaft by hand and re-slide yer crankshaft gear on. You haffta keep re-turning until BOTH the camshaft gear and crankshaft gear INDEX marks talk to each other per the picture. You can NOT be off enny tooth. (even one) The indexes must match. There is NO SHORTCUT. Properly indexed ALL the pistons will be at 1/2-stroke.
Ignore yer sidemount dizzy timing 'cuz it is 360deg rotational and is set to 4deg BTDC per yer flywheel timing marks. .......Dell
Ignore yer sidemount dizzy timing 'cuz it is 360deg rotational and is set to 4deg BTDC per yer flywheel timing marks. .......Dell
Greg 2N (TX)
Member
My gosh Uh Oh,
Man lets get this thing right.
I'm almost in tears for you.
Gotta make darn sure that when you line up the dots on the mesh gear that you have your valve cover off to look at the #1 valves.
Not being able to look at your cam lobes means you must see the operation of your #1 exhaust valve.
You know I was thinking last night that if you find that the cam is set right, that you might have the distributor "only" 180 degrees out.
I think the later 8N has timing marks on opposite sides of the flywheel and that you might be timing off of the wrong side of the flywheel marks.
Now that is a stretch, so first make darn sure your cam "IS" in the right position as I stated earlier.
Get the timing dots lined up and then rotate the crank 1 turn clockwise and see the #1 exhaust valve open.
If it does not then you have to improvise to make a bolt/lever jig to turn your cam with the cam gear removed and then replace the cam gear onto the cam in the right position.
Unless you pull the oil pan, it might be hard to remove that crank gear.
I would leave the crank gear on and "deal" with the cam.
You know I "happened" to take pictures of mine so even if my oil pan was back on I could still go off of my stamped mark on the front of my cam slot face. Gotta cover all the bases.
Boy, I hope you have the patience, because don't expect to breeze through this one.
You gotta take your time and keep asking questions along the way.
God Bless,
Greg
Man lets get this thing right.
I'm almost in tears for you.
Gotta make darn sure that when you line up the dots on the mesh gear that you have your valve cover off to look at the #1 valves.
Not being able to look at your cam lobes means you must see the operation of your #1 exhaust valve.
You know I was thinking last night that if you find that the cam is set right, that you might have the distributor "only" 180 degrees out.
I think the later 8N has timing marks on opposite sides of the flywheel and that you might be timing off of the wrong side of the flywheel marks.
Now that is a stretch, so first make darn sure your cam "IS" in the right position as I stated earlier.
Get the timing dots lined up and then rotate the crank 1 turn clockwise and see the #1 exhaust valve open.
If it does not then you have to improvise to make a bolt/lever jig to turn your cam with the cam gear removed and then replace the cam gear onto the cam in the right position.
Unless you pull the oil pan, it might be hard to remove that crank gear.
I would leave the crank gear on and "deal" with the cam.
You know I "happened" to take pictures of mine so even if my oil pan was back on I could still go off of my stamped mark on the front of my cam slot face. Gotta cover all the bases.
Boy, I hope you have the patience, because don't expect to breeze through this one.
You gotta take your time and keep asking questions along the way.
God Bless,
Greg
Greg 2N (TX)
Member
Hey Dell,
Is is possible to put the cam gear on the cam itself in a wrong position for the later 8N sidemount type cam?
I personally do not have experience with the later 8N cam gear.
Thanks,
Greg
Is is possible to put the cam gear on the cam itself in a wrong position for the later 8N sidemount type cam?
I personally do not have experience with the later 8N cam gear.
Thanks,
Greg
Greq.......NO, the later cam drive gear has 4-bolts that are lopsided (uneven spacing) and can ONLY be installed one-way. Early N-cam drive gears were "pressed-on" and can be installed (pressed) outta index with cam lobes. It should be intuitively obvious that special indexing equipment would be needed to press the camshaft drive gear on. .......Dell
Greg 2N (TX)
Member
Man I hate beating a dead horse but hopefully it won't hurt too bad to say just a little something.
I appologize Uh Oh for not answering your questions directly, please forgive me.
You asked;
"am i correct in saying that if i set the cam where the intake valve closes RIGHT as the piston hits the bottom of the down stroke before the compression stroke, this is a good guide point?"
Sort of. As Dell said you have to start with the dots exactly lined up.
If it is is possible to put your cam gear on the cam in the wrong position then resolve it by looking at the #1 "EXHAUST" valve from the point of lining up the dots and rotating the crank 1-rev.
Here is the reasoning behind what I am saying;
With the dots lined up, #1 piston is halfway going up to TDC.
Hence, the "INTAKE" valve is already closed!
So you are partly right about looking at the intake valve except it will be "FULLY" closed and with no exceptions starting with the dots perfectly aligned.
Now, the 1-rev of the crank is the nail in the coffin.
During your 1-rev test, you hit #1 TDC, go down the power stroke, and get halfway through the 'EXHAUST" stroke.
Gee whiz, sorry for all that.
But at the end of the 1-rev of the crank that #1 exhaust valve is beginning to open.
And that covers it all.
After the cam nightmare is over, make sure you leave the cam/crank dots lined up on the #1 before-TDC position and check your distributor to make sure it is not turned around in the complete opposite direction if that is possible.
Greg
I appologize Uh Oh for not answering your questions directly, please forgive me.
You asked;
"am i correct in saying that if i set the cam where the intake valve closes RIGHT as the piston hits the bottom of the down stroke before the compression stroke, this is a good guide point?"
Sort of. As Dell said you have to start with the dots exactly lined up.
If it is is possible to put your cam gear on the cam in the wrong position then resolve it by looking at the #1 "EXHAUST" valve from the point of lining up the dots and rotating the crank 1-rev.
Here is the reasoning behind what I am saying;
With the dots lined up, #1 piston is halfway going up to TDC.
Hence, the "INTAKE" valve is already closed!
So you are partly right about looking at the intake valve except it will be "FULLY" closed and with no exceptions starting with the dots perfectly aligned.
Now, the 1-rev of the crank is the nail in the coffin.
During your 1-rev test, you hit #1 TDC, go down the power stroke, and get halfway through the 'EXHAUST" stroke.
Gee whiz, sorry for all that.
But at the end of the 1-rev of the crank that #1 exhaust valve is beginning to open.
And that covers it all.
After the cam nightmare is over, make sure you leave the cam/crank dots lined up on the #1 before-TDC position and check your distributor to make sure it is not turned around in the complete opposite direction if that is possible.
Greg
Greg 2N (TX)
Member
I'm glad your cam gear can only be put on in one way.
Listen to Dell!
He knows what he's talking about.
If it is easier to pull the crank gear, I'd like to know how it goes.
Got a spare "GOOD" late 8N block here that I may ressurect one day, so any info is appreciated.
Good luck,
Greg
Listen to Dell!
He knows what he's talking about.
If it is easier to pull the crank gear, I'd like to know how it goes.
Got a spare "GOOD" late 8N block here that I may ressurect one day, so any info is appreciated.
Good luck,
Greg
Greg 2N (TX)
Member
Thanks Dell,
I have the bolt-on front mount dist type cam.
I have not re-assembled it yet.
So I never noticed on that one if it has a lopsided bolt pattern.
Guess I'll find out.
Greg
I have the bolt-on front mount dist type cam.
I have not re-assembled it yet.
So I never noticed on that one if it has a lopsided bolt pattern.
Guess I'll find out.
Greg
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