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Apology to jddrawbar

R

rrlund

Well-known Member
I didn't want to leave this hanging out there without apologizing. That post went bye bye while I was typing apparently. I just react to the first thing that pops in to my mind, and when you said $125 a bale hay, I went straight to that organic story. If you're in a drought area and having to pay that to keep cattle going, I honestly feel bad for you. I've been in the cattle business all my life and I know things get pretty tough some times. It doesn't reflect the entire industry though and anybody who has feed is riding high right now.

I don't apologize to the organic guys though. As smug as they've been for years about ripping consumers off with a clear conscience, selling snake oil and denigrating what the rest of us grow, I think it's hilarious that they're eating their own now. The livestock guys are getting ripped off by the crop guys. Going to the government now wanting a handout after all they've said about conventional farmers taking government money, how do you get more hypocritical than that?
 
And not trying to kick you more than you are kicking yourself, the area jddrawbar ranches has been hit by some of the worst weather Texas has to offer except a hurricane. That they could use just for the rainfall. In addition to a multi year drought they were hit very hard by the ice storm and freezing weather in 2021. I have 2 friends that custom bale and they made one cutting this year. According to one it was stuff he wouldn't have wasted fuel on if it had been any other year. One of the things I like about this forum is getting a better idea of what it is like to live and work in other parts of this vast country. BTW JonF's pic this morning reminded me why I did not want to move to Minn.
 
Remember Stuart ..... if someone does anything different than the way you do it then they are probably crooks and therefore illegal. Same thing applies to simple things like thoughts and lifestyle, etc.
 
CH, Truer words could not be spoken although you have placed a rather sharp spin on it. I am not sure that it means others are ..crooks or illegal.. but they surely are viewed as ..outside your norm or set of ideals.. Also certain personality types exemplify this more than others. So as this is not seen as a finger pointing, this is true of the human race as a whole.
 
I hope my reply didn't sound like I was saying that Stuart was guilty of what I was referring to. His question was a good one.
 
As far as organics organic farmers are not creating the market they are meeting the demand from consumers that don't want their food grown with poisons and chemicals that cause cancer and other health problems.
No one is being ripped off and since you are not in that market why worry about it either way?I'm pretty much an organic producer and have never taken a penny Federal Farm Welfare.Can you say the same?
 

Real simple: ALL food is organic. The Snake Oil Salesmen come up with pointless and contradictory definitions to somehow prove their version of food is superior to, you know, what everybody else grows. Utter horse$#!t. They charge higher prices for food that is no essential way different from any other food, and they have conned a whole population of drooling fools into to paying them.

I can't speak to the political aspect of it, just the con game that has been widely successful because most people have no contact anymore with the growth of food.
 
I was going to become an organic milk producer a few years ago. And my land had to be farmed without the aid of herbicide or chemical fertilizer for 3 years before I could apply to be eligible. And I did the requirements on my land. When I went to apply, the certifying body told me that I would also now have to house my milk cows in a free stall barn. My cow barn was tie stall, and cows went out to graze pastures in summer. They told me that they wouldnt take any new organic milk shippers unless they had free stall barns, and the existing organic milk shippers that housed their cows in tie stall barns had 3 years to get new facilities built or be shut off from the organic market. How does the type of barn a cow is kept in relate to organic or conventional production?
It doesnt, its just a feel good idea in the heads of the organic board. The cows are free to move around and socialize with each other in the free stall barns. BS
 
Real simple answer the consumers of the organic milk wanted it that way.People that spend the money get to make the rules for anything,farm products included.The old saying The customer is King.You didn't want to do it,your choice,someone else will.
 
Yea I do for the most part,but it really doesn't matter as its their money they spend that counts.Farmers that think they can dictate the market for food products by calling consumers names are dead wrong.
 
I have to agree with rrlund on this one. Organic has a way of rubbing us conventional producers the wrong way with an ideal they are better for the environment. Yes, they use no synthetic chemicals, but any measure of soil health, carbon footprint, soil loss etc. is usually greater in an organic system when comparing equal crop rotation systems. Organics depend heavily on tillage, probably the most destructive tool in agriculture today that isn't talked about by anyone but a few farmers.

Organic to many producers means safe, good for the environment, and somebody is watching to many untrained consumers, which is unfortunate. Reality is much more complicated- organic is usually well behind in many, in my opinion most, areas that consumers are concerned about.
 
No problem Randy, I assumed you didn't know the whole situation. Take a look on CL anywhere in Texas and you can see what hay is selling for. TF was saying hay in his area (Va. I think) was $40 a bale & plentiful.....try trucking that hay to central Tx. and see how much cheaper than $125 it will end up. I didn't just ride in on a truck load of grapefruit. I've had cattle for over 76 yrs. and thank goodness they have never been my main source of income. 2011 was just as bad. I had hay trucked in from Mo. & still ended up selling beautiful angus heifers at give away prices. Cattle buyers from as far away as N. Dakota were coming down an buying cheap cattle. Thanks for your reply.....
 
So? Ever notice the milk promotional ads? They all show cows out on nice green pastures,not like dairy cows are really treated.If owners of dogs and cats treated them like millions off farm animals are treated they'd be put in jail.
 
Well, that's my point. The soccer mom sees a cow on pasture. A freestall isn't a pasture. I have a value added cheese business... I get asked that a lot. Do store demo on a snowy February day, and get asked, are your cows on pasture? I honestly respond, no, they are in the barn. Would you be out today with no shelter? And suddenly the consumer realizes not evey day is sunny, and that they enjoy ,warmth, dryness, etc inside just like a cow would.

Organic does a marvelous job of portraying every cow on grass all the time. And as you know, it's a hoax. A drylot dairy with 10,000 head and trucked in feed qualifies for organic certification- hardly what the consumer thinks is how the animal lives.

And so, I doubt a consumer knows the difference in barn styles. Do you???
 
We feel for you. Drought or flood can be perilous!

I have an employee whose family quit dairying in TX last year. It's been a rough road for sure.
 
I believe you have pretty well covered the topic with your last remarks. Organic isnt just about not using chemicals or antibiotics, its more of a belief, a faith based ideology. What could possibly be farther from what the consumer believes an organic dairy cows life should be, in a dry lot with feed being trucked in. Or on a farm eating grass pasture at least 120 days of the year.
 
With the cancer rates, chronic disease rates and general health of people, I wonder about the chemicals that are in our food supply. The amount of nutrients in our grown foods is way down vs 50 years ago. Farming for our profit not necessarily ti provide healthy food to consumers is what I see happening these days. Farmers us to make a living now they make a killing. Cows use to live longer years ago and were healthier. Soils use to be healthier too. I believe and have found data suggesting organic is healthier. But organic as a slogan is about a feel good idea more than anything
 
True story.........A friend of mine sells firewood. We live between 2 large cities here in Michigan. Each one 30 to 45 minutes away. 2 years ago he listed on craigslist that he had firewood and organic firewood for sale. He listed the organic firewood for $25 more per face cord than the (regular) firewood. When people from the 2 large cities called him in reference to the firewood for sale I don't think I have to tell you which one the city people bought.
 
I've heard that same story elsewhere Buck, well versions of it, first time with firewood though. C'mon, I know people want to think city dwellers are stupid but they're just like everyone else on the average. They don't live in caves. Anyone that believes that story would have to be ...... have to be ...... well, I don't want to use the s-word on anybody.
 
Most of the organic crops I see are so weedy and poor yielding, if they didn't get that high price they would go broke the first year.
 
I can't say I agree. People live longer than ever. And we've changed many variables besides pesticides with food... nuke it in a microwave, hold a cell phone to our head, and countless other things that could- or could not- cause cancer. There are a lot of variables. As for soil, I'll offer the following- in our case, using no-till for 30 years has produced soils that have much more soil life (worms, insects, fungi, bacteria, etc) than what we had 30 years ago. That healthier soil allows me to grow bigger crops with less, yes less, inputs than 30 years ago. It's my observation that the plow is much more detrimental to soil than pesticides currently on the market if used within reason. My father-in-law, organic farmer since the 80's, has seen none of those soil improvements. Indeed, besides his being nice black prairie dirt, it is just that- dirt. It's about the most lifeless stuff one could imagine.

As for cows living longer, well, my family has bred 13 cows that have produced over 300,000 lbs of milk lifetime. One held the world lifetime production record for nearly 10 years, with over 458,000 lb produced. If you think livestock is mistreated, I'd offer that they don't produce if mistreated. And they don't set lifetime records if not taken care of with their best interest in mind. I think you'd struggle to find data that shows organic cows last longer. For certain, they don't produce more.

Last, I'd argue that organic to producers is about profit. If it wasn't, they wouldn't charge more than anyone else, expect more market clout, or talk down about other systems with their marketing. If it was for the common good, it wouldn't cost 2x what everything else does.
 
First off, I never stated that organic animals live longer. You never stated your average cows life span. I wasnt talking about people living longer than in the last but living healthier.
If no till was so great, mire people would do it. It doesnt work for all soil types. Some people farm because they believe in it. Not everyone dies things for profit only.
The fact remains that foods have much less nutrients in them the years ago. There are more chemicals in our food than ever. You misread what I wrote.
 
The one that set the record lived to be 20 and a half. How long do you want them to live? Keep in mind culling standards are much different than years ago... dairy or beef typically don't keep pets any more, right or wrong. As for no-till not working... that's more mindset than anything. Tillage occurred nowhere in nature, other than earthworms, etc. yet forests and prairies thrive in all sorts of soil types. I use what mother nature provided, and still provides- worms, insects, etc. Organics, via tillage, usually destroys most of those critters.

In regards to more nutrients, be specific. Protein, amino acids, certain minerals? In some regards, I believe you are probably right... we breed crops for yield, and not so much for certain nutrient content, although it does happen with soybean and wheat, where protein content is measured as part of genetic selection. If you think organic in general has higher nutrient content in general, please provide the data. I've seen the claim in the organic propoganda, but no data to back it up- like most claims in the organic industry.
 
I raise a big garden 100% organic.I'll put my yield per row and weed control up against anyone's.And once I went totally organic problems like tomato blight disappeared.
 
I'm not going to jump on the band wagon here on organic farming.

But, as for your apology about the high priced hay, I remember reading that, and thinking this guy has no idea what's going on in other parts of the country. Seemed kind of like an open mouth and insert foot moment to me.
Sometimes I think a guy forgets about how broad of an area this web-site covers. And one should remember that before barking something out on here. Just because they are giving hay away in your neighborhood, doesn't mean that it isn't completely different somewhere else.

The trucking on hay is expensive. A different hay market might only be 2 or 3 hundred miles away. Especially when there is drout zones.
 
My theory is that they are causing the drought in the southwest with the condensation trails. They force all the storms to the north. Wells in California are going dry!
 
amen to the weeds. we got 2 that are bto's that are organic growers. noxious weeds galore. solid stands of johnson grass and weeds are spreading. i dont see how they get away with that cause in missouri its illegal to let noxious weeds grow un attended
 
So how long is the average dairy cows life in this country vs 30 years ago? I think more cows are culled today than before.
Youre comparing farm ground to forest as a way to compare conventional? Thats apples to oranges
From what I have read, no till takes more herbicide. With their being round up on our food supply the best answer?
Are you concerned about producing food that is safe or profit ?
 

I have a few rd bales that due to drought & low bale production per acre combined with high fertilizer/herbicide/lime cost then adding cost of baling I have $185 per bale invested.

I had a person a few days ago come 80 miles one way to pickup 6 mixed grass rd bales for $100 ea. I've seen Corn stalks advertised locally for $80 per bale.
 
Organic firewood????? Really? I had some maple firewood piled up for 13 years and it became 'organic' all by itself!
 
You are living in a fools paradise if you think that tomato blight will never come back because you grow organic. Tomato blight is a fungus that can and will travel and be present on other host plants. Just like potato blight. Given the right weather conditions blight will come back to your tomatoes just as they will any other patch.
I too have grown garden without chemical fertilizer or herbicide, fungicide or insecticide. Most years everything does very well just like yours. I , like you prefer to eat fresh produce grown without the aid of chemicals. I never minded using a hoe, or crushing potato bugs with my fingers, rather than spraying poison on the plant that was going to produce the food I was going to eat. The Colorado Beetle (potato bug) also enjoys life on several othe plants, one place I have found them is devouring climbing vines in fence rows.
 
I could believe that maybe someone might post the ads (for sale or wanted) for whatever reason Timmy, maybe for a good laugh or a few chuckles on the phone. I suppose one condition of buying or selling the wood would be to declare where you lived to make it all work ..... ha! The fact that city dwellers made its way into the story just leaves me a bit suspicious over the truthfulness of the whole thing. Anyways, stay warm over Christmas whether you use organic or regular firewood, or something else.
 
I wonder where people are getting the idea that food is less nutritious nowadays? I would say the average American is over nourished, judging from the crowd at Walmart.
 
(quoted from post at 09:01:56 12/23/22) I could believe that maybe someone might post the ads (for sale or wanted) for whatever reason Timmy, maybe for a good laugh or a few chuckles on the phone. I suppose one condition of buying or selling the wood would be to declare where you lived to make it all work ..... ha! The fact that city dwellers made its way into the story just leaves me a bit suspicious over the truthfulness of the whole thing. Anyways, stay warm over Christmas whether you use organic or regular firewood, or something else.
Click to expand...

If you don't think most city dwellers are abysmally ignorant about agricultural matters, you don't know enough city dwellers. Yes, Virginia, there are plenty that don't understand the connection between cattle and beef or hogs and pork. And, yes, Virginia, these people vote.
 
You're right, and of course there is always the quality vs quantity issue. I think we get lots of both categories, especially the latter and with Christmas coming ..... hmmmmm !!
 
I've seen organic fir wood also. If anyone needs any certified organic fence post a company called Kencov fence supplier will have all you need.
 
Sustainable. Organic is not. Never has been, and won't be until tillage disappears. It's why slash and burn takes place, why settlers moved west when they depleted soils in the east, why the dust bowl happened. Organic practices at their finest.

I don't use more chemicals than I did prior to no-till. In some situations, less. I use no insecticides. And yes, I do use round-up, rarely over the top of the crop. If so, at least 90 days prior to harvest. And even with that dreaded roundup, my soil is healthier than before- more worms, more beneficial organisms.

If I wanted more profit, I'd look at organic. I have family that does it. Here's the deal though... I look to leave my farm in better shape than I got it. That doesn't happen often with organics, seen it and experienced it- lots of depleted, eroded, dead soils, more often than not.
 
[b:654c4848f0][i:654c4848f0]What does inorganic food taste like[/i:654c4848f0][/b:654c4848f0]

Don't know about other NE Texas delicacies, but organic opossum tastes like chicken.

cvphoto143552.jpg
 
We were looking at a rescue dog at the pound,when asked if we would keep the dog in the house except to take him on walks,I said no. We let them have the yard and inside at night, or when we are gone. No dog for YOU!
 
Actually early farmers left part if their land fallow to rebuild soil fertility.
And people are not living longer according to the CDC. Shortest lifespan in the last 25 years. Im not talking about your no till practices per say but on average per the data in this country
 
If i understand correctly the discisdions,I think that an happy medium is to follow the principes of regenerative agriculture. This seems to have merits of increasing soil fertility and water absorption, increase michorisis implantations.

Keys are:

- Minimum till or no till
- Permanent soil covering
- multiple species, on cover crops and on regular crops


I have a neighbourgh doing it here in western France, he has seeded his canola crop with 4 other species:
- buckwheat to reduce insect attacks (no insecticide used, which is a great economy), also buckwheat sprouts very easily. Insect do.not like the odor of the plant.
-febrile to trapp some amoniac in the soil
- kamikaze (I do not remember) insects prefer it over canola
- milo


This guy is really an observer and has intelligent responses to what he is seeing. This seems very common troughout people farming this way.

Gabe Brown from MN,seems to be very good at explaining. He has many youtube vids, and a Deere 7200 (teactor related).
 
Tillage occurred nowhere in nature, other than earthworms, etc. yet forests and prairies thrive in all sorts of soil types. I use what mother nature provided, and still provides- worms, insects, etc. Organics, via tillage, usually destroys most of those critters.
Click to expand...

Absolutely correct!
I like to say that a plowing man thinks deserts are great, to want that bad to have the same kind of fields.
 
Glad you are looking at science and statistics. I'm sure death from cancer is higher, but some of that is because of decreases in death from heart disease and stroke. Something takes us no matter what. And today, we exercise less than ever, drive everywhere, and are lazier than all the generations prior. I think that weighs heavily on our health status. Keep in mind ,if I could avoid chemicals in my system, I would. However, they seem a necessary evil, and an unfortunate connection to big business.
 
How big is your big garden?? What would your yields and weed control be like if your garden was 50 times that big?? Comparing your big garden to a large organic farm is comparing apples to oranges.

Anyone can stay on top of the right sized garden if they have a mind to.

When it comes to organic farming (in my neck of the woods anyways), many bite off more than they can chew (try to manage to much), and they end up not being able to stay on top of it. Weeds get out of control. Yields go down.

I know a lady that does organic beef cattle on a fairly large scale. And she does OK I think. But, ... she doesn't really dabble in organic anything else. Just keeps her cattle, pastures, and hay ground organically qualified. Which (in my opinion) would be much easier to do, than doing organic something else. Such as corn, beans, the list goes on.
 
On the Johnson grass being a noxious weed, one man's junk is another man's gold. That's how I feel about JG and what it has done for me over the 43 years I have been farming. I make hay and JG hay is the perfect feed for my daughter's horse and my cattle when they graced my homestead. I still make hay to sell and have no problem selling it to repeat costomers.
 
(quoted from post at 15:20:18 12/24/22) On the Johnson grass being a noxious weed, one man's junk is another man's gold. That's how I feel about JG and what it has done for me over the 43 years I have been farming. I make hay and JG hay is the perfect feed for my daughter's horse and my cattle when they graced my homestead. I still make hay to sell and have no problem selling it to repeat costomers.
Click to expand...

I agree. We bale Johnson Grass with JOY. Cows eat it with JOY.

Best damn feed there is.

Don't cut it down to the bare ground, leave about 6" stubble, and it can be harvested in the middle of a drought without nitrate problems. Most people that have bad luck with it, don't know how to harvest it.
 
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