Beware

[James Tabor]

About a month ago I purchased a 1945 JD B. The tractor was advertised on this site as being totally rebuilt with an impressive detailed list of new or rebuilt parts including the engine. Cosmetically the tractor is perfect. It has been stored in a climate controled shop along with other restored tractors for about 4 years and wasn't ran enough to burn the paint off of the manifold. As soon as I got it I changed the oil and anti-freeze since I figured it hadn't been done since restortion. Ton's of stop leak came out with the antifreeze. The oil was dirty but didn't have any water in it. After changing these it sat over night. The next morning I decided to run it abit but checked the fluids first. I drained 2 gallons of coolant from the oil. To make a long story short I have had to tear the engine down and it is VERY apparent that the engine had never been touched. The head is in terrible shape and there is so much rust and debris in the block it will take a day to get it clean. Learn from my mistake, if you ever consider buying a totally restored tractor ask for photos of the restoration process as well as receipts for parts,machine work etc. It is disappointing to see how honesty and integrety are becoming a thing of the past especially in this hobbie. I guess I equate old tractors and their owners with old time values; my mistake!

 

[dhermesc]

That's all good and fine - but we would need to know the name of the seller to avoid the same mistake.

 

[John S-B]

Take pictures of the head and various parts, then file a lawsuit since this person obviously falsely advertised the tractor as being rebuilt. If you have a copy of the original ad, I think you'd have a winner in court.

 

[dej(Jed)]

Most people buy on appearance. I get them running well and leave the paint alone. I would say that 75% of the lookers go on what it looks like and not how it runs. Another bunch of tire kickers go on what they say is or isn't original equipment. Sorry to hear about your bad luck. I would be raising H## by now if I was you. You sound way to polite. I had a guy read me the riot act about a factory 400LP that didn't have the correct head. It turns out that IH didn't use an LP head until about half way thru the production of 400's.

 

[dej(Jed)]

Most people buy on appearance. I get them running well and leave the paint alone. I would say that 75% of the lookers go on what it looks like and not how it runs. Another bunch of tire kickers go on what they say is or isn't original equipment. Sorry to hear about your bad luck. I would be raising H## by now if I was you. You sound way to polite. I had a guy read me the riot act about a factory 400LP that didn't have the correct head. It turns out that IH didn't use an LP head until about half way thru the production of 400's.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Painful to hear. I ran into a similar issue. Called the fella that sold me the equipment. Told him what I was experiencing. Fella started swearing at me over the phone basically saying I was a dumb arse. I hung up. Took photo's of the engine as it was rebuilt --pointed out the problem sent the photo's in Christmas card. Not demeaning just pointed out the mechanical issues and a note on how nice the paint job.

We tolerate so much moral corruption these days. I won't buy anything used from certain areas in my state. Bought a diesel truck years ago. Had new batteries when I paid. Left it over night the fellas swapped out the batteries. Good thing it did not start or I would not of looked under the hood.
Don't tolerate it. If you do post pictures of the rebuild here so the fella that cheated you possibly unintentionally can learn a thing or three.

 

[rrlund]

Anybody want to get into what "restored" means now?

 

[JT]

I agree with the other poster, if you are going to make posts like this, please at least give a name so no else gets burnt, you put "beware" , who are we to be beware of? This is precisely why I do not buy "restored" tractors, I buy them to rebuild, then I know what I have instead of relying on others.
Jim

 

[MN Rick]

The fact that more people buy on appearance than condition is so very true. I tried to paint a tractor 20 years ago and was embarrassed of how it turned out and havent picked up a paint gun since. When a buyer comes into the yard and every sentance has the word "paint" in it, I just politely tell them I probably dont have anything they would be interested in.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Who's to say what Jim T. says actually happened? Unless Jim T. makes others aware of who this unethical person is so others can "Beware" then it is so much idle chatter at this point.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Take pictures of each step in your repairs.
Photocopy original ad.
Write the seller a detailed letter explaining.
Telephone seller and get his reaction.
Make detailed notes of each contact.
Demand all money back in cash.
Get a lawyer, sue the he** out of him.
Post his name, address here and everywhere.
Run ad in his local newspaper explaining.
Don't just get walked on like a whimp.
TELL US WHO HE IS
Tom

 

[Anonymous-0]

Best for all to know who the seller was/is and give the dishonesty some motivation to make the deal honest and if that party doesn't then future buyers will be much less motivated to deal with his kind and practices.

Second thought, take this party to court for further motivation...

 

[James Tabor]

Advise; A wise man doesn't need it and a fool won't heed it. Which are you? I will post the "Gentleman's" name as soon as possible. I have attempted to locate the original add in the "Photo Ad Archive" from this site but it is temporarily down. I will keep trying. Patience my good man, patience.

 

[BIG RED 1]

Painful to hear.
Please share the sellers name here and on the feedback forum.
thanks Randy in Iowa

 

[John (MO)]

Totally restored usually means that someone threw some paint at it.

I trust my Mama, but everone else... I check their work. Sorry to hear you didn"t get what was advertized.

 

[Mike M]

As always buyer beware ! I hope you didn't pay any more than for a nice repainted one.

I can't tell you how many times someone told me they "completely restored" a tractor but once I started asking questions about this and that and indepth stuff turned out they didn't have a clue so I knew they had never been in there.

 

[Gun guru]

Did you test drive the tractor? Did you put it under load, like plow with it?

 

[Ray]

A law suit is not as easy as it sounds,i don't think a lot of you guys have any experience with the law at all.First you have to prove intent.When he said restored,what did he mean?The law calls it puffing,or bragging about something,not illegal.

 

[John S-B]

If you'd read the original post you will see that James said it was advertised as having been rebuilt and having many new parts. You don't have to be a lawyer to see that the tractor did not meet the advertised description which is FRAUD. Or perhaps you'd like THEFT BY DECEPTION better. Read the post again.

 

[James Tabor]

No plowing. This tractor is a show tractor. It is so slick with so much attention shown to detail(Cosmetically) it is hard to believe that the engine wasn't gone through too. You can tell by looking at it that all the gaskets are new. There are absolutely no oil leaks or rust anywhere and this is four years after restoration. The engine pops like it should and didn't smoke any. It is a hand crank and usually starts on the 2nd spin. I checked for end play of the crank and it has the factory spec 1/8'. The stearing is tight and the tires are new. Every bolt is correct. It has a new radiator, manifold, guages,flawless sheet metal,magneto, Jorde decals I could go on and on. The only thing I can figure is since it did run so well that maybe it hadn't seen much use in it's life so the restorer saw no reason to rebuid the engine. Nevertheless it should not have been advertised as having been completely overhauled. The reason I notice a problem was because I flushed the cooling system and washed all of the Stop leak out of it. The leak was coming from the push rod sleeves. I spoke with a head rebuilder here who has been in business for forty years. He says he has rebuilt hundreds of these old heads and has never had to replace the sleeves. From what I can find out this is somewhat of an uncommon problem although it does happen sometimes.I did test drive it in every gear, low and high range. Put the PTO in gear. Every thing works fine. I am having the head rebuilt with new sleeves. I will probably be out an additional $300.00 plus my own labor when all is said and done. A small price to pay for a leason learned and in the end I will have a very nice B.

 

[Andrew Youngman]

I have not rebuilt any tractors. I and the rest of my family always runs their tractors. I would think that it is plausible that restoring a tractor, IE: rebuilding a motor, and then parking it without running it in, would be very hard on the gaskets and seals...?? A car/tractor should probably be ran some every year, and put to work sometimes to keep it healthy, JUST LIKE US. At least "run in" the motor. I don't know though. My father-in-law was complaining a couple years ago when his neighbor had a sale and when it came to the tractors, that he hadn't ran in ??? 5-10 years, he was looking around going these people are going to get a tractor that wont hold their fluids. The tractors looked nice just were never used. That is just my opinion - could've been the case very easily.

 

[Andrew Youngman]

I have not rebuilt any tractors. I and the rest of my family always runs their tractors. I would think that it is plausible that restoring a tractor, IE: rebuilding a motor, and then parking it without running it in, would be very hard on the gaskets and seals...?? A car/tractor should probably be ran some every year, and put to work sometimes to keep it healthy, JUST LIKE US. At least "run in" the motor. I don't know though. My father-in-law was complaining a couple years ago when his neighbor had a sale and when it came to the tractors, that he hadn't ran in ??? 5-10 years, he was looking around going these people are going to get a tractor that wont hold their fluids. The tractors looked nice just were never used. That is just my opinion - could've been the case very easily.

 

[James Tabor]

You are right. Sitting idle for long periods of time is detrimental to seals and gaskets. That's why I like to drive mine around and engage the PTO usually a couple of times a month atleast. Plus it isn't any fun if you don't hear them run and they are fun to drive.

 

[Alaskapete]

Your ill feelings toward the seller are truly understandable. Have you talked to him about your discovery? Is it possible that he, without knowing it, was duped by someone else who supposedly had work done for him? Is he willing to make some sort of settlement with you? Years ago I sold a tractor to a man thinking it had nothing seriously wrong with it. The man called me about a month later irate because of a problem. We agreed on a settlement, and I sent him a check because I felt that my reputation was more important than the money. Maybe your seller might feel the same way. Sorry about the long post.

 

[jim in N M]

James, I'd be willing to bet my left not that this guy bought the tractor from someone els that said it was totally rebuilt etc.etc. And I'd bet he sell other tractors also,and that's how it happened?? just my .02 cents worth. Jim in N M

 

[Goose]

For any kind of litigation, you would need to establish exactly what was "rebuilt". Next, the law leans heavily on intent. You would need to prove that the seller intended to defraud you.

Everyone is agreed that a lot can happen internally while a tractor sits for four years.

Have you talked to the fellow? He may not even realize there was a problem, although the stop-leak sounds fishy.

 

[El Toro]

Is this the tractor's serial number? Hal

S/N 297541

 

[James Tabor]

No. 172XXX

 

[motorv8N]

Yeah, either people don't know what "restored" means or there are a whole lot more lying SOBs on this earth than I imagined. Had a very similar experience looking to buy my first tractor. Took the time to learn the 8N checklist referred to in that forum. Even though I'm a tractor novice I got to the point of being able to do a thorough go through including compression testing in about an hour taking my sweet time.

Answered an ad by a guy who was selling two "completely restored" machines -- a 49 and 52. Drove two hours to see them and was blinded by the paint jobs from a hundred feet away. He was content to sit on his porch swing while I worked my way through one tractor, then the other. Turns out they were nothing but paint. Worn brakes, bad hubs, iffy clutches, leaking hydraulics, crumbling rads - - it went on and on. When I challenged him on it, saying these are painted, not restored, he just grinned and shrugged. Then he invited me into his shop and showed me what was a pretty serious setup. Lots of tools, lots of parts, lots of honest grease and oil stains around. He pulled out several photo albums of past restorations that were obviously true, down to the last nut and bolt jobs. He had even been written up in the local paper.

Essentially he told me that all that work often got him no more money that a real good paint job. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Here's a guy who could obviously do the work and was what we'd all consider to be a "tractor guy" but had come to the conclusion he'd rather just start by being dishonest from the get go and see who might fall for it. AND, he seemed perfectly at peace with himself. No shuffling or sidways glances. No humming, hawing, scratching his head, evading direct questions. He looked me right in the eye the entire time, basically let me call him a liar without batting an eye. Amazing.

 

[Anonymous-0]

I did an H JD a few years back, closer to 6 probably. Every nut and bolt was off and every part cleaned as good as a new one. It sat in the shed since then till this fall when we decided it was time to paint it. I was going to start it and it had no oil pressure. Took the crankcase cover off thinking a line was loose or broke somehow. I couldn't see anything so I drained the oil. Man what a mess that was. Looked like someone had dumped dirt in it. I took the oil filter off and it looked like it had never been changed. Only thing I can figure happened the oil got old and started having a molecular change. A new filter and clean crankcase full of new oil and it had good oil pressure. Things happen when they just sit idle that we normally don't think about.

 

[Walt Davies]

I sold some pistons and rods with new bearings to a local guy who was happy when he left then when he got home he called and said that one piston pin was so loose that he had to replace it. funny thing is those pistons were new when put in the tractor 5 years earlier and never run more than a few hours. they were so stiff on the rods that they wouldn't fall down when turned over in your hand.
You have to be aware of both seller and buyers.
Walt

 

[Ray]

How many is Many new parts? 5-20-50, who knows.The advertised discription was the sellers opinion,he is not bound by what your descripton of restored is.It's all matter of opinion,there was no theft involved.

 

[jubilee johnny]

I live in NC and bought a jd h from ebay a couple of years ago from a company in Pennsylvania which now has evidently purchased a large used tractor parts company in Indiana. I asked if the tractor was electric start and they said yes. It wasn't. The information on the tractor stated it ran. It didn't. I went all the way to Pennsylvania to find this out. The company would never address the issue of what I considered false advertising. It is wise to get reciepts for parts used in rebuilding and photos even though I suppose dishonest folks have ways of forging those too.

 

[John S-B]

"The tractor was advertised on this site as being totally rebuilt with an impressive detailed list of new or rebuilt parts including the engine."

I don't think there's any "opinion" about that description. If you think there's any question about this description, do us a favor and don't sell any tractors to anyone.

 

[Bob Kerr]

Funny how some people will say it is all "new and rebuilt" and then show you the receipts for the parts dated 1987. How they get "New" and forget that "New" isn"t 20 yrs old I will never know.