Big Gas Tractors - Still worth it?

[Mac AR]

I had a little down time today, and I've been thinking (which is extremely dangerous): are the big gassers (like 4020s, 706s, 1855s, etc) really that thirsty compared to a diesel? I think the average on the Nebraska tests is 1 gallon more than the diesels. And, are they still feasible for someone that doesn't work one every day? I admit, I don't use a tractor every day. Almost, yes, but not each and every day, day in and day out. I normally put around 800 to 1000 hours on the clock a year, I think (don't know, neither of them have meters).

I ask all this because, I'm thinking I'd like to have a bigger horse. I'd love to have a 656, or 706. They're my first choice. My second would be one of the Oliver 50/55 series, or maybe a 3020 Deere. I'd like to have a cab, too, but thats not a deal breaker. Would I put myself in the poor house with the fuel bill? After this year, I'll be down to mowing twice a year and feeding in winter, so hours will be cut down to about 1/3 what they were. Will the increase in speed and ground coverage offset the increased (if any) fuel consumption? I know the 300 Farmall uses 3 to 3.5 gal/hr running my 6' brush cutter over about 2.5-3 ac/hr. I have found an 1850 gas that Nebraska says uses 7.7 gal/hr. That's awful thirsty, but having said that, I'd have about 80 pto HP instead of 42. I can pull a lot bigger mower. Or run my same mower faster, at a lower engine speed. Again, I don't know. Maybe I should just keep the 300 and the B JD and keep on keeping on.

See, I told you thinking was dangerous for me!

Mac

 

[buickanddeere]

If they were fitted with port injection and electronic ignition the margin would narrow considerably between gas and diesel. There was a Green Magazine article where iirc a 4020 was updated . Something like 10% more power and 20% less fuel burned . Look at what today'spower and mileage in a pickup with a direct injection gas engine . Vs the gas trucks of the 1970's.

 

[jon f mn]

For light loads like feeding and manure hauling and haying they are ok. For tillage they are not great as they burn a lot more gas than most of the nebraska tests say and produce less pulling power. Put 2 in a field side by side and it doesn't take long to see the differences.

 

[Hay maker2]

Gas or Diesel, it does not bother me....

I would stear clear of the 706 as you can not shift them things.

I bleed green, and that John Deere green. They have excellent hyrdualics which makes stearing, braking, and using modern equipment alot eaiser. Not to mention they still support there old products; not saying every part is still available, but between Deere and and all of the junk yards you can find what you need.

I just do not like the hydrualics or shifter between my legs on them Ollies....

 

[Mac AR]

"I just do not like the hydraulics or shifter between my legs on them Ollies.... "
But that's where they're supposed to be! I'm not terribly fond of the dash shifters on either the 06 series IH or the 20 series Deeres. I can live with it on the
IH if the TA works, but only then! Thats another reason I considered the Ollies, since they have the Over/Under. I promised myself a long time ago, no matter what
color/size of tractor I had, it would have 2 things: Independent PTO and TA (or something similar). Am I wrong? I don't know, maybe I am. But by gosh, I'm not worn
out after half a days work.

I do tend to agree about the hydro controls though. They belong on the dash. The right hand side, to be specific.

Mac

 

[Brown Swiss]

The gassers don't seem to handle hard work, so I say stay away from them. I ran the darn things growing up, always was an issue of some sort why it didn't want to run right, got almost all diesels now an eased my headaches, and tripled production.

 

[Mac AR]

Oh, and in case some of you are wondering, "why not just get a diesel?" Well, there's a good reason for that. I have in my little town a gas station, 1 mile from my house. Pass by it everyday on the way to and from my regular job. They do NOT have farm fuel there. Only highway. Gasoline there is $2.089, where road diesel is $2.249. Nearest place for farm fuel is county seat, 14 miles one way. Do not want to haul fuel that far, especially if on a weekend or late evening.
That't the primary reason, that and I just don't like diesels. Everything on this farm runs gas, and I plan to keep it that way as long as I can. I understand that White made the 2-70 in a gas. That really interested me.

Mac

 

[Hay maker2]

(quoted from post at 20:47:18 10/25/16) "I just do not like the hydraulics or shifter between my legs on them Ollies.... "
But that's where they're supposed to be! I'm not terribly fond of the dash shifters on either the 06 series IH or the 20 series Deeres. I can live with it on the
IH if the TA works, but only then! Thats another reason I considered the Ollies, since they have the Over/Under. I promised myself a long time ago, no matter what
color/size of tractor I had, it would have 2 things: Independent PTO and TA (or something similar). Am I wrong? I don't know, maybe I am. But by gosh, I'm not worn
out after half a days work.

I do tend to agree about the hydro controls though. They belong on the dash. The right hand side, to be specific.

Mac

Different stokes for different folks....
I'm just the opposit as I want the shifter any where but between my legs, but you are the operator and you have to be comfortable with it!!!

Keep in mind, if the Ollie has a Hydra Power (2 speed) it will free wheel down hill if not in direct drive. I do not know if the over/under is the same or not????

 

[Mike M]

Right now the low gas prices will offset any extra burned.
We own a 4020 gas. Been perfect for what we use/used it for. Rarely gets ran now and hardly much before. It did a lot of starting and stopping quick loading jobs and snow removal. It could still handle some heavy work when called upon. If I was to use one for heavy use 800 to 1000 hours a year I'd consider a diesel.

 

[RBoots]

Seems like the 1850 gas we had, had no problem using 8-9 gallons an hour doing heavy work. Now take any of the diesels we use for heavy work, with much more power and inches, a 1066,1086,1486, and they seem to use around 6 gal an hour. Thats a tremendous difference when they are all over 100 CI bigger displacement, and they all run well over 100 HP. A 706 is a great tractor, they shift great, especially if you adjust things like they need to be, or replace things to compensate for the 50 years of wear they have. Easy fixes too. I always liked the shifter on the floor on the Olivers, it seems to stay out of your way just fine unless you are trying to climb off the platform with it in gear. No syncros to go bad in an Oliver or IH. Not that a T/A, O/U, or the JD syncros are hard to replace, they can be pricey for parts, especially if you need the JD shifting mechanism parts in the trans.

 

[Traditional Farmer]

I never run off road diesel only auto diesel in my tractors if fuel suppliers want to unload some questionable fuel where do you think its going to go? Also I never go to the truck side of a fuel station always go to the auto diesel pump with my diesel truck.Might be a waste OF $$$ but I have never had any injection problems with my diesel truck and I think thats one of the reasons.Anyway you can file to get the fuel taxes back if you keep a record of them and many times the difference between the off road and the auto diesel is less than the taxes so then I'm
ahead using auto diesel.

 

[wisbaker]

Keep in mind the work you're talking about is not "hard running against the governor kind of work". I didn't hear you talk about tillage, I didn't hear mention of a silo blower, I didn't hear a feed mill or grinder mentioned. We are experiencing a paradigm shift hear, years ago Diesel was cheaper and diesel fueled equipment used less fuel, now the gasoline is cheaper. Heck a lot of the older diesels won't run right unless you run 'em hard every now and then. Also consider the gasoline tractor is cheaper (because everyone thinks they're fuel hogs) and yes you'll have to do plugs, wires and other ignition maintenance but you can do a lot of that stuff for the prices of going into an injector pump and injectors.

 

[rrlund]

I use the medium sized gassers for chore tractors. Oliver 1550 for raking hay and work around the yard,a 77 on the silage cart,1600 with a loader for handling round bales. I wouldn't want to go with anything any bigger for tillage work,but I wouldn't want to replace these medium sized tractors with diesels either. I run them every day and have the 300 gallon gas barrel filled about twice a year.

 

[rrlund]

Over/Under's the same,but I think if I had a hired man who wasn't smart enough to know if it was in underdrive or not,he probably wouldn't be working for me very long.

 

[RBoots]

I forgot to say that we only have 2 gas working tractors still in use, the other gas tractors are just the antiques. We have 2 674 IH tractors, which are very handy little tractors, and I feel are overpowered for their weight/engine size. They are around 72 HP out of a little 200 CI engine, and spin more than they hook up, unless you want 1,500-2,000 pounds of ballast on them. They are very hard on gas though for what little they get used, I'm gonna guess that they used to use 5 gallons an hour when we used to use then for spraying and cultivating, and also running a rotary mower. Pretty much the only thing we use then for now is moving the equipment around for the bigger tractors, and plowing the driveway in the winter, as they warm up quicker than my other chore tractor, an 826 D, which never really warms up much when it's cold out.

 

[RLA]

4 diesel tractors on the farm 3255, 2755, & 2 730's all rest are gasoline , heavier work is done with the bigger tractors while the 630, 620, 2 60's
530, A,B & Little M all have the special duty's...

 

[sammydwm]

Had a 756 gasser and when you worked it doing tillage it would burn through the gas pretty quick. Even haying it liked its fuel. But man I loved that tractor....
I have a 656 now and it's a bit easier on the gas when making hay. Doesn't have the snot to pull the same plow so I use a newer diesel tractor to hump that around. It doesn't burn near the fuel that the 756 did.
Best tractor I have had was a Leyland 270, run it on a disc all day and you'd swear it was making fuel.....

 

[Russ from MN]

I predict in the future you will see the compact utilities go back to gas, so much cheaper to pass emissions. For those of us that only put 50-100 hours on in a year it wouldn't make much difference in fuel cost. With modern fuel injection and electronic ignition they could be as maintenance free as a diesel.

 

[Dean]

I agree, Russ. The federales are driving some markets back to gasoline due to nonsensical, expensive and useless regulations.

Expect to see gasoline tractors to return to the market in the foreseeable future.

Dean

 

[Hay hay hay]

I am a small operator, mostly hay and mowing. I have 2 medium (40 & 50 HP) old gas tractors and 1 newer diesel 85 HP tractor.
The diesel pretty much sits all winter while the old gassers get daily use.

I don't think I could find the difference in fuel costs in a year the way I farm.

 

[paul]

My first combine was a gas F Gleaner.

My second combine was a diesel F2 Gleaner short shoe. No new heads, kept the ones from the F. As a short shoe model, it was essentially the exact same combine.

Neither my gas or diesel fuel barrels were tall enough to gravity feed into the combine, so I hauled fuel to both of those in 5 gallon cans.

Ran each of those machines about a decade.

My trips up that ladder with the 5 gallon cans was cut nearly in half with the diesel.

For a yard tractor that idles around mostly probably doesn't matter a whole lot. But if you actually use the power (as a combine does), boy is there a difference in gallons used.

Paul

 

[Dean]

Bingo!

The federales are driving many HD PU buyers back to gasoline.

The same thing is going to happen in other industrial markets.

Dean

 

[Pair-a-dice farm]

That's quite a few hours a year for a tractor, by no means impossible but most don't get half that many. In a 70hp tractor the best I ever got when using was about 3 gallons per hour on gas. in a diesel I usually use about 2 gallons an hour for the same use. That varies by tractor of course. Around here at today's price, gasoline is $2.09 a gallon. Off road diesel is $1.75. Based on what I know, for 1000 hours use a gas tractor would cost $6270 in fuel. A diesel would cost $3500. I've only got 1 gas tractor left and it's for sale. For no other reason than I can store diesel for a year or longer. In the summer months gas starts taking on moisture in a couple of months. If you are using your's that many hours that probably wouldn't be a concern.

 

[Bruce from Can.]

While my farm is small scale , run around 300 acres . Grow 50 acres of grain , 25 acres of silage corn , all the rest is hay . Make between 13-1500 round bales , for right around 65 milk cows, so there is manure to spread too . My gas tractors are antiques that never go to the field anymore. My four main tractors are 100 hp and over , two that see the most use get only 400 hours each. I would go broke feeding a gas tractor here to do this kind of work at $1.00 per litre or around $4.00 per gallon . A 1000 hours each year on a tractor is what you say you do , will drink up 3-4000 gallons of fuel , even at two bucks a gallon , yikes !!! I am unsure what you use your tractors for , but that is a lot of hours to run on some forty plus year old tractors each year. As I recall gas tractors need to be rebuilt more often than diesels did too. Just out of curiosity , what kind of farming do you do ?

 

[RodinNS]

The best I can recall looking at Nebraska numbers, generally.... diesel models of the same tractors used 1/2 -2/3 the fuel of the gas engines. Those are maximum power tests. Real world mixed use... I suspect the variance would be greater in favor of the diesel.
I had an IH C263 in a combine and 5-6 gph was the norm with that thing. IIRC, A 706 would probably have the same engine. If you buy that, the only thing you'll know is poverty....
As some others have mentioned, if you were comparing a modern spark engine with port injection and electronic controls to a modern diesel... then the balance might be different. However, that's not what you're comparing. I'd stick with the diesels.

Rod

 

[Mac AR]

Bruce, and others. My farm is small by comparison to many. Only 80 acres with 20 of that tillable. I did raise corn and some beans, but I am getting out of that, and raising beef cattle now. My biggest job will be mowing pastures enough to keep weeds down. Otherwise, just feeding and moving hay, and a truck garden. If I do go bigger, I'll keep both my other tractors for the garden. They are a 300 farmall and a B John Deere. Plenty of power for an acre garden. As it stands the 300 is my main horse and does the most work. I have a 6' mower and do all the pastures with it now. I would buy a larger mower if I stepped up in size. Otherwise, the newer tractor wouldn't see much hard work, unless I just felt like using it.

Thanks for all the replies.

Mac

 

[coonie minnie]

You are right... at partial load, the economics are skewed even more toward the diesel. Kind of defeats the purpose of "I'm just gonna use it for light stuff". The nebraska tests usually had a partial load test, and this shows up there. There is a reason diesels still sell for a lot more than a gas tractor.

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 15:57:06 10/25/16) The gassers don't seem to handle hard work, so I say stay away from them. I ran the darn things growing up, always was an issue of some sort why it didn't want to run right, got almost all diesels now an eased my headaches, and tripled production.

Are gasoline engines the same now as they were then? Are diesels the same now as they were then?

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 18:31:41 10/25/16) Bingo!

The federales are driving many HD PU buyers back to gasoline.

The same thing is going to happen in other industrial markets.

Dean

The EPA's plan is to force the use of lighter cleaner burning fuels with ever tightening tailpipe regulations . Eventually even gasoline won't pass and LP or natural gas will only pass. Then eventually only hydrogen fuel will pass.

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 19:41:04 10/25/16) You are right... at partial load, the economics are skewed even more toward the diesel. Kind of defeats the purpose of "I'm just gonna use it for light stuff". The nebraska tests usually had a partial load test, and this shows up there. There is a reason diesels still sell for a lot more than a gas tractor.

Other way around . Diesels at part load have lower efficiency than the corresponding gasser.

 

[dzc3]

One of questions that need to be considered when buying an older gas tractor is the hours it has been operated. I own a CK930 Gas with Allied loader. Its a late 60's model with 2200 hrs. When I traded for this tractor it was low hours. I guess because it cost so much to operate. I run about 100 gals thru it in a busy year and sometimes less. Cheap to buy, easy to start and fun to operate. Open station which is not good when plowing snow. Lots of things to consider....

 

[Al Baker(pumpman)]

I can give you my 2 cents, take it for what you will. I had a Gleaner G combine. It was gas. Same engine as a 190 Allis tractor 95 Hp. I used to shut it off when I stopped to eat a sandwich or take a leak. I found the exact engine in the diesel version. Six cyl. turbo diesel from a 190xt tractor. The amount of fuel I used was half. I figured I paid for the engine the first year in fuel savings. I used to do a lot of custom harvesting with it. The gas engine used 10 Gal. An hour. Diesel,, 5. Most hours on a combine are with the motor speed high. I know a chore tractor would be operated at lower RPMs most of the time. I have had 3 Large gas tractors. I never missed lunch when I used them. You couldnt miss lunch because you had to head for the house to refuel by noon. If you buy a gas tractor cheap and don't put many hours on it it might be ok. Al

 

[Philip d]

Sounds a lot like our farm too Bruce! I also want to appologize for the debating the other evening on milk policy. I'm often guilty of speaking my mind when I may not fully understand what I'm talking about and I'm sorry. Any chance your a member of Gaylea? Only reason I ask is were members of ADL who they have a working agreement with.

 

[RodinNS]

Perhaps the Deere's do....

Rod

 

[jm.]

Never happen the manufactures have already invested time and money to put in place emission requirements of the diesel engines. Gas engine would have to meet the same emission standards.

 

[Mac AR]

Need to also say, that 1000 hours is split
between both tractors, so 400 to 500 each,
with more for the IH. Pair a dice, what kind
of tractor are you selling, out of
curiosity.

Mac

 

[showcrop]

Here in NH if you save your slips you can file a form with the state and get most of your highway fuel tax back from the previous year. I bet you can in your state too.

 

[01gentdc]

having read half the commehnts I must say ,,, a good runnin gas tractor is hard to beat on a below freezing day when you must feed the animules,.. that said I have fought halfazt runnin gassers that I bought for a song and straightened them out to be good,,.. as oneposter stated the big HORSE gassers are usuall;y low houred for a reason , mainly they just drink toomuch ,, but generally they are in good condition , lik my 730 gasser is,,..if I had to choose between the DC and the 730 to sell ,,. I would keep theDC, for sentimental saker ,, TRUEm,,,.. but in reality agood running DCis ahaleof a power to be rekoned with ,,.. POP SAID that60 yrs ago and IMHO, it is still holdinTRue today,.. one thing moreaboutgassers ... if you want to keep one happy and running strong they should have at least 5 gallon per montgh and started and ran at least once a week ,,../ that just my opinion ,,..

 

[Mac AR]

Couldn't agree more, ol gent. I start all my stuff once a week, even my lawn.mower. I also have a regular service schedule. Air cleaners and sediment bowls once a week when being used or every 10 hours. Oil changes every 100. Plugs and points twice a year need it or not. Carbs get rebuilt every winter usually, unless they don't need it. But they usually do. Also do the trans oil every winter. All this is on a chalk board on the shop wall, and the boss lady printed me off some nice paper ones for a clip board. I have figured out over time that this type of regular maintenance pays, regardless of the machine. Heck, that's why my old craftsman mower is still going strong! Its a 1997 model, have never had it in to a professional, except once to have deck rebuilt.
Anyhow, I thank you all for your wisdom and input. I've thoroughly enjoyed this discussion.

Mac

 

[01gentdc]

don't know how you find the time ,, but glad you can ,..

 

[Mac AR]

The truth? Sunday afternoons. Its the only true work I'll permit myself on a Sunday, unless the proverbial ox is in the ditch. Otherwise, its service work. But I truly enjoy it, so don't really call it work. My father is a mechanic, and so I suppose its in the blood. I'd nearly start a topic called "Regular Maintenance" and see where itd go.

Mac

 

[FBH44]

Two numbers stick in my mind. I have two tractors, of different ages and makes, turns out, just happens, that both are exactly 152 cubic inches. Gas tractor rates at 24 HP, diesel rates exactly twice that, at 48 HP.

 

[rrlund]

Michigan too. The federal tax can be claimed as an income tax credit.

 

[01gentdc]

if it aint the ox ,, its the cows in thecorn ,,. LOL ,../ I too enjoy tinkering ,,. recovering from colon cancer and have a clean slate ,,, b,ut I still have the numbness and tingles in my hands and feet from the chemo effects ,, nurses and dr ,, sayus rest , rest REST . and it will go away ,, damit...... soo ,,. I am doing good to keep the grasscut ,.. ,.,.

 

[LarryH]

we have a rather large farm for our area and primarily use gas and lp because the difference in cost the interest will buy a lot of fuel and the upkeep will be less---the other reason when people need feeding in cold weather I don't have to hunt the ether or extension cord

 

[Dave O'Brien]

Getting back to your original question, Based on what you describe, a 656, 706 or later would be a good addition. It doesn't read like you would be doing a lot of heavy field work. The extra hp and comfort would be a hidden benefit as well. The 706 shifting issues do have some merit to them but they can be repaired. My biggest problems with those machines mentioned have been carb and possible governor problems. The 656 is lighter on the front end, but does have mechanical brakes.