Braided battery strap

[Mike OH]

Was just sitting here thinking..... Why did Ford use a braided battery ground strap instead of just a plain cable????? The way I see it, it shouldn't make any difference, but got to believe there was some reason for it.

When I converted my 52 8N to 12 volts I wasn't able to find a braided strap for the negative battery terminal so I just used a standard battery cable. Seeing as how the (+) and (-) terminals are a different size does anyone know where I can get a braided strap to fit the negative battery terminal??

Thanks in advance.
Mike OH

 

[Gaspump]

Everyone used a braided battery ground in the 30's-50's, likely the partly the flexibility, the surface area that carries the electrons is higher, also the material cost would be less. The braided as far as I can tell is about a #4, the #0 stranded wire would serve you a lot better but if you want originality the braided has served well for many a year now.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 13:17:42 12/16/08) Was just sitting here thinking..... Why did Ford use a braided battery ground strap instead of just a plain cable????? The way I see it, it shouldn't make any difference, but got to believe there was some reason for it.

When I converted my 52 8N to 12 volts I wasn't able to find a braided strap for the negative battery terminal so I just used a standard battery cable. Seeing as how the (+) and (-) terminals are a different size does anyone know where I can get a braided strap to fit the negative battery terminal??

Thanks in advance.
Mike OH

Maybe the 1939 Ford engineers thought Direct Current was somehow akin to microwaves. Microwave & such high frequencies like to travel near the surface of conductors (known as skin effect), rather than within the core and a flat, thin, wide cable has greater surface area than a round one of same gauge.
Guess Ford engineers learned more in the following years (DC & microwaves at opposite ends of spectrum, as 1939 radar engineers already knew), since now round is dominant.
:roll:
Host site has braided flat ground cable and you can likely tighten the larger cable end even on the small post, I have.

 

[Dan]

My 1992 electronics course taught me that electricity does flow on the outside surface of the conductor. This is why stranded cable can carry a much larger load than solid cable of the same diameter. Are you saying this is incorrect.

Not saying you are wrong, I would just like to know if I am still using outdated information.

Dan

 

[souNdguy]

Maybe for the 'EZ' & 'CHEAP' factor.

1, A cable with no insulation is 'cheaper'.. why pay for insulation that is not needed.

2, At a glance.. it is easy to ID which cable is tied to ground, since one is the flat uninsulated braid.


soundguy

 

[souNdguy]

Good idea.. bad analogy.

As dan points out.. it is the surface area of the individual strands in question.

stranded cable is stranded cable..

flat stranded or rolled makes little difference..



soundguy

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 13:59:54 12/16/08) My 1992 electronics course taught me that electricity does flow on the outside surface of the conductor. This is why stranded cable can carry a much larger load than solid cable of the same diameter. Are you saying this is incorrect.

Not saying you are wrong, I would just like to know if I am still using outdated information.

Dan

Not saying it is incorrect in total, just that it can not be used as a blanket statement. The current 'depth' is a function of frequency. It becomes more shallow, that is closer to the surface, as frequency increases.
For example, here are a few wire gauges and the corresponding frequencies at which 100% skin depth are achieved. At higher than that frequency, the center of such wire is carrying a lesser current than the surface.
0000-125Hz
#1GA-250Hz
#6-1100Hz
#8-1650Hz
#10-2600Hz
#18-17KHz
#22-42KHz
#30-270KHz
#40-2.9MHz
Or from another perspective, the skin depth at various frequencies:
60KHZ-0.35 inch
600KHz-0.003 inch
6,000MHz-0.00003 inch

In conclusion, at DC, it does not matter.
Hope that helps.
Dunk will say it makes his head hurt.

 

[souNdguy]

And since N's are dc...........................................

soundguy

 

[Jubilee85]

Mike,

Dan in his reply is exaclty right. Anything that is braided will carry MORE electrons (amps) than solid wire due to the skin effect. Think of it this way, the electrons on the inside of the wire have a little more friction than those on the outside. Typically a wire doesnt go bad as much as where it CONNECTS to something else. Battery terminals are the place that must be cleaned all the time due to the connections being made there.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 14:59:26 12/16/08) And since N's are dc...........................................

soundguy

...there is no skin effect and current flow is uniform throughout the conductor(s).

Wiki Knows All


TOH

 

[Jubilee85]

to put it a better way - size DOES matter!! A flat braided wire will have more surface area than a single round strand. Flexability matters too.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 16:04:19 12/16/08) to put it a better way - size DOES matter!! A flat braided wire will have more surface area than a single round strand. Flexability matters too.

NOT surface area at DC (battery/tractor), rather cross-sectional area. You can have whatever cross-sectional area that you want in EITHER round, rectangle, hexagon, triangle or whatever you can get it manufactured in.

SouNdguy came as close to why as we are going to get: "cheaper".

$ are almost always the answer.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Not to be picky but the braided cable is the + cable not the negative cable as you called it. Or it is supposed to be anyway. thats the way henry planned it.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 16:27:30 12/16/08) Not to be picky but the braided cable is the + cable not the negative cable as you called it. Or it is supposed to be anyway. thats the way henry planned it.

Mike OH, said initially that his was converted to 12v and he was wanting a braided cable to use on that neg ground 12v system. His concern was that he couldn't tighten the std braided POS gnd terminal end on the smaller neg battery post. {First post of this wandering thread}.

 

[jon]

to put it a better way - size DOES matter!!

That's what I was figgerin! :lol:
I know given the proper water volume I can fill up a 5 gallon bucket a whole lot quicker with a 1 inch pipe than I can with a 1/2 pipe! :wink:

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 16:53:25 12/16/08)

to put it a better way - size DOES matter!!

That's what I was figgerin! :lol:
I know given the proper water volume I can fill up a 5 gallon bucket a whole lot quicker with a 1 inch pipe than I can with a 1/2 pipe! :wink:

Well, it is a slow dayand electric current isn't water, so .................

Jon, if you had a rond pipe of 1 inch in cross-sectional area and a square pipe of 1 inch cross-sectional area for your water to flow thru, which will fill your 5 gal bucket first?
Jube85 suggest that the square one will fill it first, because it's surface area is 7.09 per inch of lenght vs the round pipe of 6.28 inches per inch of length.

 

[jon]

(
Well, it is a slow dayand electric current isn't water, so .................

Jon, if you had a round pipe of 1 inch in cross-sectional area and a square pipe of 1 inch cross-sectional area for your water to flow thru, which will fill your 5 gal bucket first?

Again, enough "volume" being the key word, wouldn't the square deliver more water?

Actually the reason I used water as an example, years ago some friends & I were discussing/arguing whether the stranded battery cable on a motorcycle would lose any of the voltage/power if say 10 out 100 strands were broken off at the end like they so often do. The one guy we considered "smarter" than the rest of us used water pipe as an example as to how much "flow" you would lose. Never did know if that was a true statement or not but it sorta made sense.
I'm still willing to learn tho!!

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 18:54:19 12/16/08)

(
Well, it is a slow dayand electric current isn't water, so .................

Jon, if you had a round pipe of 1 inch in cross-sectional area and a square pipe of 1 inch cross-sectional area for your water to flow thru, which will fill your 5 gal bucket first?

Again, enough "volume" being the key word, wouldn't the square deliver more water?

No they deliver the same amount because the cross-sectional area inside the pipes is the same. Water flows inside the pipe - not on it's surface.

TOH

 

[Bob]

I agree 100% with Soundguy... a plain braided cable simply made the "bean counters" happy, as it SURLY would be cheaper to make than a fancy (and UNEEEDED) insulated cable.

'Most all cars, trucks and tractors of that era came new with the simple braided cables.

Nowadays, with 12 Volts and good starters and small engines, the cables can be made VERY light-duty and CHEAP!

 

[ZANE]

I would have to dig through a big pile of electronics study books that I have stacked out in the barn from when I took the Bell and Howell home electronics corrospondence course on the GI bill back it the early 70s for proof but I do remember that the reason for the braded wire or multiple strand wire instead of the singel strand of wire has to do with the fact that the braded wire is much more effecient with actually less total conductor volume by weight. By a long shot!

And the reason is because of the skin effect of the conductor. Believe it or don't!

The way I understood it was that the single strand wire has a skin of electrons that do nothing but wave out in the wind and the multiple strand conductor each individual wire has the skin effect but it is so close to it's next door neighbor the skin effect electrons are caught up in the ajoining conductors and puts those electrons to work instead of them just hanging out in space doint nothing.

Did you know that a coulomb has one hundred million electrons???? This is one of the first pieces or useless information I learned in my electronics course.

Zane

 

[jon]

No they deliver the same amount because the cross-sectional area inside the pipes is the same. Water flows inside the pipe - not on it's surface. TOH

I figured that! :lol:
I didn't know what he meant by surface area, I was [i:ba0e6071b8]assuming[/i:ba0e6071b8] inside diameter.
Is a 1" square tube not measured from it's narrowest point being side to side not corner to corner? Again, [i:ba0e6071b8]I assumed[/i:ba0e6071b8] & we all know what that means.....

 

[Anonymous-0]

Braided flat cable of small wires is much more flexible than equal gauge stranded; as anyone that has muscled 3/0 or 4/0 cable into a box can attest.It might also be easier to mold braided into lead clamp. I think skin effect is more of a high voltage AC thing and is not a factor with low voltage DC. BILL

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 14:40:40 12/16/08)

(quoted from post at 13:59:54 12/16/08) My 1992 electronics course taught me that electricity does flow on the outside surface of the conductor. This is why stranded cable can carry a much larger load than solid cable of the same diameter. Are you saying this is incorrect.

Not saying you are wrong, I would just like to know if I am still using outdated information.

Dan

Not saying it is incorrect in total, just that it can not be used as a blanket statement. The current 'depth' is a function of frequency. It becomes more shallow, that is closer to the surface, as frequency increases.
For example, here are a few wire gauges and the corresponding frequencies at which 100% skin depth are achieved. At higher than that frequency, the center of such wire is carrying a lesser current than the surface.
0000-125Hz
#1GA-250Hz
#6-1100Hz
#8-1650Hz
#10-2600Hz
#18-17KHz
#22-42KHz
#30-270KHz
#40-2.9MHz
Or from another perspective, the skin depth at various frequencies:
60KHZ-0.35 inch
600KHz-0.003 inch
6,000MHz-0.00003 inch

In conclusion, at DC, it does not matter.
Hope that helps.
Dunk will say it makes his head hurt.

My friend, you dang shore got that right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was always taught that stranded wire always carried more current without heating than solid, and the finer the strand the more it carried.

But then we were always talking AC, and that would have been at 60 HZ (cycles per second).

I don't know what that Europien stuff would have done at 50.

Reckon one can fill a bucket faster drankin Budweiser, or water, or coffee?

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 20:57:19 12/16/08)

(quoted from post at 14:40:40 12/16/08)

(quoted from post at 13:59:54 12/16/08) My 1992 electronics course taught me that electricity does flow on the outside surface of the conductor. This is why stranded cable can carry a much larger load than solid cable of the same diameter. Are you saying this is incorrect.

Not saying you are wrong, I would just like to know if I am still using outdated information.

Dan

Not saying it is incorrect in total, just that it can not be used as a blanket statement. The current 'depth' is a function of frequency. It becomes more shallow, that is closer to the surface, as frequency increases.
For example, here are a few wire gauges and the corresponding frequencies at which 100% skin depth are achieved. At higher than that frequency, the center of such wire is carrying a lesser current than the surface.
0000-125Hz
#1GA-250Hz
#6-1100Hz
#8-1650Hz
#10-2600Hz
#18-17KHz
#22-42KHz
#30-270KHz
#40-2.9MHz
Or from another perspective, the skin depth at various frequencies:
60KHZ-0.35 inch
600KHz-0.003 inch
6,000MHz-0.00003 inch

In conclusion, at DC, it does not matter.
Hope that helps.
Dunk will say it makes his head hurt.

My friend, you dang shore got that right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was always taught that stranded wire always carried more current without heating than solid, and the finer the strand the more it carried.

But then we were always talking AC, and that would have been at 60 HZ (cycles per second).

I don't know what that Europien stuff would have done at 50.

Reckon one can fill a bucket faster drankin Budweiser, or water, or coffee?

TOH gets the Gold Star.
1 should be pi.
Surface area=circumference X length.
At least for me, I'm pretty sure Bud faster than H2O or coffee.
Have a good evening, Zane.

 

[ZANE]

Another thing that I know about multistranded conductors. I make up a set of jumper cables about 25 years ago with heavy bolted and soldered clamps. They are made from Welding leads that are about 3/8" diameter of the conductor bundles. They are about 12 feet long and I can use them to jump off any engine with the doner engine running and they will start a dead engine with a dead battery just like the good battery was in the dead tractor. I've seen lots of other same size jumper cables that didn't have nearly as many individual conductors but were the same diameter total size and none of them come even close to conducting DC as good as my jumber cables do. This is DC. Not AC.

I have been working on internal combustion engines for a long time and I know for a fact that the spun or woven conductor is much more effecient than the straight big lesser numbered conductors of the same or similar size. A six volt system just will not start as good unless the ground cable is woven or spun like the original was.

Zane

Zane

 

[JimSC]

Sorry, but that's dead wrong. With low voltage DC, cross sectional area of the metal (ie, copper) wire is the same. If it's "wires" or "A WIRE' of the same cross section, it will carry the same amount of current.