Broken Left Sector

[ssickel]

Neen help 44 2N 12volt FEL. As luck would have it I get some chains on my tractor turning it into a new machine. Only problem it still doesn't turn so well. Long story short I slide into a snow bank and snap my left sector just above where it bolts to the pitman arm. From looking at FO-4 it looks to be a big time operation to replace it plus expensive to buy a new one. Is this something that could be welded or some other way to fix? I really don't know what to do. I am really stuck not being able to steer with only one front wheel turning. I don't have any idea on how I would even go about tryin to get it to a shop where it is stuck now in over a foot of snow. Thanks Scott

 

[Bruce (VA)]

The left sector on a 9N/2N would be p/n 3527, right? Try these guys for parts:

Jim Bills jimnjen3ATearthlink.net



Jim Webb jwwebb1155ATaol.com



John Smith smith8NATatt.net





Replace the AT in the address w/ @


I've never been in a 9N box, so I can't tell you how easy or hard it will be. It's not all that hard on an 8N, but it could be difficult on a 9N. I'm sure plenty of folks here have done 9N steering box rebuilds & will be along soon w/ some help.
50 Tips

 

[souNdguy]

aside from lots of hand work to get access to the box and pull it apart.. it's not an impossible job.

That said.. I'm a big fan of at least trying to fix parts if possible.

If you have a welder, go for it.. v grove the broke area and use a good rod and correct amp settings to get full penetration. make your root pass then tie passes. Might scab some 1/2: flat stock or rebar onto either side of the brake to tie the 2 parts together. seen it many times.. even on 3pt lift arms. if you are at least a hobbiest welder+.. it should be a simple project. remember to placew the ground clamp near the weld joint on the arm and clean all the paint off the area.

post back if you hit snags.

don't be afraid to try.

I'v made custom steering repairs to 3 of my tractors.. on my 3000 and 951, I made new draglink arms with adjusters from scratch, plus rod ends, and on my 850 I made an offset for the arm/draglink to clear a loader bracket.. ( the 951 and 850 have loaders.. so the parts I made are getting good workouts and have had -0- problems.



soundguy

 

[ssickel]

If I end up having to buy new should I bite the bullit and have both sides replaced while they are in there? I will have to farm out the work. Are these a "weak link" so to speak. I know they are 65 years old so I hate to buy used. I would just hate to fix this one only to have the other break next year. I didn't hit hard just pushed up against the snow dift with the wheel trying to turn right. Looks like this site sells the parts but the run about $140 each. Thanks again

 

[Dunk]

I broke one of my upper lift arms, and welded it back just like Sounder is talking, ground it down when I got thru, you can't even tell it.

 

[dahermit]

"...and use a good rod and correct amp settings..." What is a "good" rod compared to a "bad" one? What are the correct amp settings?

 

[souNdguy]

I'll assume you aren't a welder.. so explaining rod selection and amp settings won't do much for ya.

some rods like dc.. some are better at out of position.. some are low hydrogen, fast freeze.. deep penetration, etc.. etc..

soundguy

 

[souNdguy]

Weak link? No.. but if you drive into stumps and snow banks .. sumpins gotta break eventually..

soundguy

 

[John Smith8N]

I'm a die hard do-it-yourselfer, but considering the predicament you're in right now and the fact that you'll have to outsource the repairs, I think I would open the yellow pages and find a local weld shop who has a portable unit on a truck and does house calls. He can come to the tractor, do a proper weld repair on site, and you can get back to work with it. An experienced welder can fix it so it's a strong as new and you'll pay him less than you'll spend any other way you go.

 

[Jock (OR)]

I replaced these parts in our 2N years ago. It is not a bad job, but you have to remove the hood and dash to get down to the steering gear. Once you get it apart, you will find that you need to replace everything, because the worm gear wears out and both sectors go bad as well. If your sector does not have enough sticking out of the housing for the welder to work with, you are forced to replace the parts.

If you think you have enough sticking out to weld successfully, get a professional welder to look and it. Someone with a portable setup may be able to stick it together enough to get it into the shop, or even fix it right where it is now.

If not enough is sticking out, I was successful in moving the tractor by kicking the tire to point the way I needed to go, then matching the "good" tire to that angle with the steering. I had to keep doing this over and over until I got the tractor into the shop.

 

[jimNCal]

I got 'em but, you don't want 'em right NOW.....

Best to follow John's advice and call in a portable rig/welder. Just have it welded up STRONG and ugly so you can get thru the winter and gain the time to gather all of the resources you'll need to do a proper steering rebuild.

 

[trucker40]

Alright if you are an ok welder and familiar with 6011 and have a AC welder,I would suggest v it out,run a pass,Now grind every bit of slag out,repeat. If you are a good welder and know how to run 7018 then V it,tack it in place with good tacks and 6011 rod. Run a root pass of 6011 around it.Grind every bit of slag out,follow with 7018,multiple passes until its full of weld rounded out of the top of the V. If you see any place that has bubbles in the weld after you chip the slag,grind them out and reweld it.
Now there are other possible rods. You want to stay away from Nickel rods because they are expensive and too brittle of a weld in my opinion. If you weld nickel on there and it breaks then a pro will have to grind all that mess out of his way and use a different rod. So it will make the job a lot harder and maybe make the difference of finding somebody to do it right or not if you need to.

Also welding cast can cause it to crack. If it does then grind a v in the crack and weld it. Once you start you cant stop until you are done or it will surely crack when you try to weld on it again. You can almost eliminate cracking by welding an inch,stop,clean slag,weld another inch,repeat. You can even use a MIG. You want to fit it as close as possible back to where it was and if you cant see the crack very easy when you get it fit,thats as good as you can get it probably.
7018 is harder to weld with an AC welder but there is 7018 AC rod that works better on an AC welder. With a DC Pipeliner or something its no problem to weld 7018. There are lots of rods nowdays. You could ask where you buy them what would work for it as long as they dont talk you into buying nickel rods which are real high priced. Ask what Low Hydrogen rods they have that will work on cast steel.Nickel is actually for cast iron and not necessary for welding cast steel.MIG might be as good as any.
Before the naysayers even get started I have welded cast steel with 6011,7018 and an AC welder,higher strength Low Hydrogen which is almost the same as 7018,Mig,and other rods that I dont even remember,plus nickel. Nickel was the worst but I think it may be stronger than brazing. MIG is a little brittle but better than nickel and the easiest way to weld cast without it cracking as long as you weld a short weld,grind before starting the next weld so you start in a nice clean surface. 7018 works good,and is maybe some stronger than MIG if you can get it done without cracking. Also I grind my weld when I get done so its not so noticeable and I think it makes the weld stronger. If you are a real good welder uphill is the way or flat if you can get it that way.

You dont have anything to loose. Its broke now. If you can weld you can fix it. Even if you cant weld good you might be able to stick it together and JB Weld it to where it holds oil and get by for a while.

 

[Anonymous-0]

I have used parts, but 2n9n sectors are usually very worn.

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 22:00:41 01/10/10) Alright if you are an ok welder and familiar with 6011 and have a AC welder,I would suggest v it out,run a pass,Now grind every bit of slag out,repeat. If you are a good welder and know how to run 7018 then V it,tack it in place with good tacks and 6011 rod. Run a root pass of 6011 around it.Grind every bit of slag out,follow with 7018,multiple passes until its full of weld rounded out of the top of the V. If you see any place that has bubbles in the weld after you chip the slag,grind them out and reweld it.
Now there are other possible rods. You want to stay away from Nickel rods because they are expensive and too brittle of a weld in my opinion. If you weld nickel on there and it breaks then a pro will have to grind all that mess out of his way and use a different rod. So it will make the job a lot harder and maybe make the difference of finding somebody to do it right or not if you need to.

Also welding cast can cause it to crack. If it does then grind a v in the crack and weld it. Once you start you cant stop until you are done or it will surely crack when you try to weld on it again. You can almost eliminate cracking by welding an inch,stop,clean slag,weld another inch,repeat. You can even use a MIG. You want to fit it as close as possible back to where it was and if you cant see the crack very easy when you get it fit,thats as good as you can get it probably.
7018 is harder to weld with an AC welder but there is 7018 AC rod that works better on an AC welder. With a DC Pipeliner or something its no problem to weld 7018. There are lots of rods nowdays. You could ask where you buy them what would work for it as long as they dont talk you into buying nickel rods which are real high priced. Ask what Low Hydrogen rods they have that will work on cast steel.Nickel is actually for cast iron and not necessary for welding cast steel.MIG might be as good as any.
Before the naysayers even get started I have welded cast steel with 6011,7018 and an AC welder,higher strength Low Hydrogen which is almost the same as 7018,Mig,and other rods that I dont even remember,plus nickel. Nickel was the worst but I think it may be stronger than brazing. MIG is a little brittle but better than nickel and the easiest way to weld cast without it cracking as long as you weld a short weld,grind before starting the next weld so you start in a nice clean surface. 7018 works good,and is maybe some stronger than MIG if you can get it done without cracking. Also I grind my weld when I get done so its not so noticeable and I think it makes the weld stronger. If you are a real good welder uphill is the way or flat if you can get it that way.

You dont have anything to loose. Its broke now. If you can weld you can fix it. Even if you cant weld good you might be able to stick it together and JB Weld it to where it holds oil and get by for a while.

I used small (1/8?, not sure would have to go look) 6011s, on my upper lift arm.

 

[dahermit]

"...I slide into a snow bank and snap my left sector just above where it bolts to the pitman arm..." Looking at the Master Parts Catalog, the steering sector being one piece, and your description that it "snapped", as opposed to bent and broke, it could be Cast Iron not steel. You had better test it before trying to weld it yourself. Try to raise a burr (chip) on the metal that broke with a cold chisel and hammer. If it just crumbles instead of curls up into a burr, it is Cast Iron not steel (you can raise a chip on steel). In that case, you will be better off removing the part from the tractor and taking it to welder who has the knowledge and equipment to weld Cast Iron.

 

[dahermit]

"I'll assume you aren't a welder.. so explaining rod selection and amp settings won't do much for ya.
some rods like dc.. some are better at out of position.. some are low hydrogen, fast freeze.. deep penetration, etc.. etc.." So, is that why saying: "use a good rod and the correct AMP setting..." is a waste of time? Or, would it have been better to refer him to the correct information?
http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/weldrod.html

 

[souNdguy]

if he knows anything about welding, then reminding him to ue a correct rod for his position and planned penetration is not a problem. I'm not sure why you are making it a problem though????

Kinda like reminding a newby to swipe some oil on their oil filter spin on gasket before spinning it on. it don't hurt none if they had already remembered to do it.. but for a newb.. it might have slipped their mind.. even if they have done an oil change before..

I don't know what, if any, welder equipment the guy had.. or what his skill level was.. that's why i left it an open ended statement.

you gonna keep beating this moot point.. or? or?


soundguy

 

[trucker40]

Very slim chance its cast iron but it wouldnt hurt to do your test.Cast iron is mostly a blacksmith art.By the time these tractors were made it was almost gone.Once in a while you might find some old implement that might be cast iron.Probably not anything on a tractor unless it was something scavenged off of an old implement and attached by a blacksmith.

 

[Davy Fireball]

trucker:why would you make your first pass with 6011 and then finish with 7018-( i'm just trying to learn)i have a ac-dc welder. again i'm not trying to be smart with you

 

[dahermit]

I am a little suspicious about the possibility that it is cast iron because he described the break as "snapped". Low carbon steel almost always bends instead of breaking cleanly. Also, he has a 2N and looking at the picture on page 48 of the parts manual, the arm and the 1/4 round gear that is the steering sector are one piece (complex shape, had to be cast or forged) where as on my 8N, (page 49), steering sector arm is a separate piece and when I got my 8N it was bent very badly (not broken or "snapped".
FYI, cast iron is not a "blacksmith" item, the "blacksmith item", was "wrought iron", with was a strong, form of impure iron (silicate slag beaten back into it), that had a tough, stringy texture that looked like bamboo when it was broken. Also, cast iron is used in the engine blocks, transmission block and rear ends of N model fords.

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 13:22:53 01/14/10) I am a little suspicious about the possibility that it is cast iron because he described the break as "snapped". Low carbon steel almost always bends instead of breaking cleanly. Also, he has a 2N and looking at the picture on page 48 of the parts manual, the arm and the 1/4 round gear that is the steering sector are one piece (complex shape, had to be cast or forged) where as on my 8N, (page 49), steering sector arm is a separate piece and when I got my 8N it was bent very badly (not broken or "snapped".
FYI, cast iron is not a "blacksmith" item, the "blacksmith item", was "wrought iron", with was a strong, form of impure iron (silicate slag beaten back into it), that had a tough, stringy texture that looked like bamboo when it was broken. Also, cast iron is used in the engine blocks, transmission block and rear ends of N model fords.

I really don't know, but I spec it is cast steel.

I also spec that is what my lift arm was that broke cleanly, and I welded it back, it welded very good.

In this pic you can pretty much tell where I welded it back and ground it back down before I painted it.

 

[trucker40]

(quoted from post at 17:09:44 01/14/10) trucker:why would you make your first pass with 6011 and then finish with 7018-( i'm just trying to learn)i have a ac-dc welder. again i'm not trying to be smart with you

If you have something that you want to hold real well thats how I would do it.The 6011 will burn the oil,grease,rust,out of the way and penetrate deeper than 7018 will.You would need to grind all the slag out to get a good weld with 7018 on your second pass.It will hold it while you weld it with 7018.This is the way to weld plate steel.I have to admit I dont have lots of experience with cast but I have some.7018 and actually any weld likes a clean surface.Cast kind of has a different coating or ingredient that makes it a little harder to weld.If you burn into with a root pass of 6011 it might help that.Usually whenever I weld cast and can get to it good I just use 7018. I read on here one time to just weld with 6011 and tried it and it worked on a steering box on a 350 Farmall.Since it works on plate and I know it works by its self on cast steel,I think it could be alright to weld for somebody that has a welder but might not be the best welder.If he can weld with 6011 then he can get it stuck good.Then 7018 is hard for people to use if they dont do it every day.Also if you dont know how to weld with 7018 it could break,crack before you even get it welded.Cast can do that anyway.I would like to hear what he did.Also would like to hear what you think.

 

[trucker40]

(quoted from post at 18:22:53 01/14/10) I am a little suspicious about the possibility that it is cast iron because he described the break as "snapped". Low carbon steel almost always bends instead of breaking cleanly. Also, he has a 2N and looking at the picture on page 48 of the parts manual, the arm and the 1/4 round gear that is the steering sector are one piece (complex shape, had to be cast or forged) where as on my 8N, (page 49), steering sector arm is a separate piece and when I got my 8N it was bent very badly (not broken or "snapped".
FYI, cast iron is not a "blacksmith" item, the "blacksmith item", was "wrought iron", with was a strong, form of impure iron (silicate slag beaten back into it), that had a tough, stringy texture that looked like bamboo when it was broken. Also, cast iron is used in the engine blocks, transmission block and rear ends of N model fords.

Well I am fairly sure that any tractor is cast steel.I know people say an engine block is cast iron,but thats wrong.The reason I know its not cast iron is that you cant weld cast iron Ive been told unless you use a forge.I dont know for certain,but I trust who told me that.Cast steel however can be welded.I bought an H Farmall and the rear housing was cracked over a foot long.Somebody had brazed it.This is less than a quarter inch thick cast steel.I ground all the brass out of the weld,drilled holes in the ends of the cracks ans veed out the carcks and welded it,overhead,with a MIG.I either read about how to do it on this website here or another one on the Internet because people I asked said to get another housing.Ive used the tractor for a bulldozer and it still holds oil(knock on wood)and it was a nasty greasy mess when I started on it.

Look up what an engine block or any housing since the age of tractors is made of.Its not cast iron.I have seen cast iron and tried to cut it,but its not what tractors are made of.The stuff from China I dont know about.

 

[Davy Fireball]

sir: first of all i want to thank you for your reply. i know that 6011 is a very deep penetrating rod and 7018 is harder to get started and is very good for structures i have welded a VW block (rabbit) using 7018-1/8 inch rod with my dc welder on the +side and it worked very well as you stated it has to be clean. however i have never welded a 8n except for lift arms then i used 6013 and a old lincoln ac and it held